PDA

View Full Version : Germinar 9/150W Docter-Wetzlar-Germany



Christopher Perez
5-May-2005, 16:07
Its been a wonderful day. Met a friend over lunch. We yacked about photography. He showed me a lens I just had to buy from him. Its labeled Docter-Wetzlar-Germany Germinar 9/150W.

Reportedly multi-coated and a Schneider GClaron equivalent, this is a very tiny lens. Mine is mounted in a nice lightweight Seiko #0 shutter. It looks to be everything the GClaron could have been, had Schneider added multi-coatings to that product line.

Others have mentioned this lens (see: http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/500228.html ) or something similar (see: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/docter-optik.html ). My lens is not marked "APO". So I am suspicious that its a six element air space design. I think my friend is right that its more a 6 element 4 group symmetrical plasmat.

I still can't get over just how small and light it is. I'll test it and see how it performs. Might be a nice addition to my 4x5 kit. :-)

Jim Galli
5-May-2005, 16:36
Congrats. I'm tickled with my 240. I will admit some passing concern about the Seikosha shutters. The way the cocking level travels and slaps at the other end has always made me wonder. If you do resolution tests, how about doing an extra group where you've transferred the elements into a Copal shutter to see if the movement and lack of make any difference in resolution.

That said, my 125 & 150 Fuji's are in Seiko and and I can't imagine them any sharper.

Christopher Perez
5-May-2005, 16:50
Jim, if I didn't already have a surfeit of 240/250mm lenses, I would have considered a 240 Germinar W. I saw one of those today too. Impressively small and light. Wow. Multi-coated? Double wow.

Regarding the Seiko shutter, mine is just as gentle against the stop as any Copal I own. Have your shutters been well used? Or perhaps an earlier implementation? Or???

BTW, Peter's 150mm f/5.6 and f/6.3 Seiko shuttered lenses we looked at are all outstanding performers. They are what originally got me to consider Fujinon lenses for LF work.

Kerry L. Thalmann
5-May-2005, 17:00
Jim,

The "lever slap" of the cocking lever on the Seiko shutter occurs at the end of the cycle. This is similar, but on a much smaller scale to the similar slap when the Sinar Copal behind-the-lens shutters close. Once the shutter is closed, it can vibrate all it wants. I've never noticed any vibration induced problems in images made with lenses mounted in Seiko shutters.

The one knock I've heard on the Seikos is that they can be difficult to repair and parts are hard to get. That said, I have lenses in 30 year old Seiko shutters that purr like the day they were new. In my limited experience, they actually seem less likely to need service and repair than Copal and Compur shutters of similar age. I really like the little all black Compur 0 shutters from the late 1980s and early 1990s, but they do seem to need to be CLA'd on a rather frequent basis or they start to slow down and drag. Current Copals seem to be quite excellent and run for many years between servicing. However, the older Copals from the late 1960s through mid-1970s aren't nearly as reliable (at least in my experience). I've got a couple of these at home right now in need of service.

Kerry

Richard Wasserman
5-May-2005, 18:40
Congratulations on the 150mm Germinar. I too just received a 240 Germinar from Kerry and am really tickled with it. I Have owned for a while a 300mm Apo Germinar that is also terrific. It's a shame that Docter Optics went out of business. I wonder what they would have been making today if they were still around.

Richard Wasserman

Ted Harris
6-May-2005, 06:29
Since the thread is vearing just slightly to a bit wider discussion of Docter lenses in general I will add that I use both a 360 Apo Germinar and a 210 Docter Tessar. Both are fine performers (albeit the 210 is a bit larger than necessary in its #3 shutter to accommodate the f4.5 max. opening). We need Arne to chime in on the wides range of Docter optics but I have been impressed with the two I use. The 360 has been with me for 7 years now since Badger was closing out the last of the new ones. When yoiu can find them they are still relative bargains. Mr. Cad in London may still have one or two of the longest Apo Germinars still available new. Some months ago they still had a 1000.

Arne Croell
6-May-2005, 09:42
Christopher, the Germinar W is a different beast than the Apo-Germinar or Apo-Germinar W - my online information on this site is not up to date on that, but the View Camera article (2003) lists it right.
The Germinar W is a Plasmat as you said, very similar to the G-Claron, whereas the the Apo-Germinar is a dialyte and the Apo-Germinar W an 8-element proprietary type, quite big. The Germinar W is multicoated and reaches its best performance at f/16 (G-Claron at f/22). It was the last line Docter Optic brought out before/during the bankruptcy, as a compact wide angle process lens, therefore it never showed up in any public announcements in the press and is very rare. I have tested (on 4x5 without movements) the 150 against the 150mm G-Claron, the 150mm f/6.3 Fujinon, and an Apo-Sironar S. At f/16, the Germinar W was better than both the G-Claron and Fuji in contrast and resolution, and was second only to the Apo-Sironar S. f/22 showed similar results but with the field much closer together. In short: The Germinar W 150mm (as well as its longer cousins) is a great lens for its size.

Christopher Perez
6-May-2005, 09:51
Arnie, thanks for the various details. Perhaps you could answer a couple additional questions:

1) Did they ever make a Germinar W 270mm optic of similar design to the GClaron? Or are the 240mm and 305 lenses the only ones that came close?

2) Is the 305 Germinar W multi-coated?

2) There is reportedly a 450/480mm(?) optic. Do you know its specifications? What it was designed to cover? What might possibly be covered (for ULF contact printing only)?

Arne Croell
6-May-2005, 10:58
Hi Christopher,

"1) Did they ever make a Germinar W 270mm optic of similar design to the GClaron? Or are the 240mm and 305 lenses the only ones that came close?"

The Germinar W came in 150, 210, 240, 305 and 360mm, not 270mm. There was a Germinar S that was a 270mm f/11 (not f/9), covering 75° and multicoated. It needs some adaption work to be put into a shutter though, its not a direct fit. S stood for specialty lens, so if the Germinar W is rare, the S is the rarest of the rare. I have never seen one personally.

"2) Is the 305 Germinar W multi-coated?"

yes, all of them are

"3) There is reportedly a 450/480mm(?) optic. Do you know its specifications? What it was designed to cover? What might possibly be covered (for ULF contact printing only)?"

The only 450 or 480mm from Docter that I am aware of is the regular Apo-Germinar 450mm f/9, a dialyte with 46° official coverage - actually the "sweet spot" of their 4-lens Apo-Germinars. That one covers 8x10 with movements, and maybe (just speculating) 11x14 for the relaxed standards of contact printing. I haven't heard about any other one. Where did you here that?

Hope this helps,

Arne

Christopher Perez
6-May-2005, 13:38
Arne,

Thanks for all the good information.

I wasn't sure what 400mm focal length lenses they'd made. You confirmed that its a 450mm optic and that there is no 480mm.

Asher Kelman
28-Nov-2011, 13:34
Arne,

Thanks for the superb information.

I'd love to hear updated experience with the Germinar W's and also the 450 f9.0. Any issues getting these in shutters? I have a barrel 450mm, since we already expanded the discussion, and would love to know what shutter it might go into. Otherwise, I'm putting an adapter on it for my front-mounting Packard.

Asher

Louis Pacilla
28-Nov-2011, 19:21
Never mind.

Asher Kelman
29-Nov-2011, 00:31
Never mind.
Louis,

Are you using any of these Doctor Germinar lenses? I have the 240 W and it's a light and bright tiny little gem of a lens.

I'm looking for mounting experience for the 450 Apo Germinar, if by chance you have one.

Asher