Schneider triple convertible ?

[Jim Rhoades]

Up on the auction site is a Schneider triple convertible. 180-285-355. It's in a Compur shutter without the triple f/stop scale. This is a new one to me, so my questions are.
1. Is this a hack job shutter exchange?
2. Will this lens cover 5x7?
3. The starting price is way more than I've ever seen for a triple (450) Is this a rare lens or a rip-off?
4. Has anyone done business with "camera$"

I have two convertibles and a Wolly triple, so I know the weaknesses of convertibles and how to use them. Thanks, I know one of you has all the right answers.

[Ole Tjugen]

I couldn't find it on "the auction site", would you care to give us the auction number?

My initial guess is that it's an old Symmar. But if Schneider ever made an 180mm Angulon, those are the focal lengths it would have as convertible - and the first Angulons were in fact sold as convertible!

Regardless, both types will cover 5x7".

[Arne Croell]

Yes, its an old Symmar, Dagor-type, not a Plasmat as their better known later ones. The f/6.8 also points to this. As opposed to the original Dagor, Schneider sold versions composed of 2 different cells, making it a triple convertible. According to the Vademecum, the switch from the old to the new f/5.6 Symmar was around1952, so this lens is either prewar or early postwar. From the pictures its hard to see whether its coated or not. The shutter has a PC sync terminal, that would point to a postwar version if it is the original one. Ask the seller for the serial no. to find out.

[Ole Tjugen]

Found it... The serial number (visible on the bottom picture) corresponds to summer of 1949 - so it's an old-type Symmar as Arne said. It's got the red triangle which means it's coated, too.

But the price seems a bit steep to me too...

[Mark Sampson]

FWIW, I believe Minor White used one of these lenses (on an early Sinar).

[Bill_1856]

I'd love to have it to complement my Staeble casket set, but IMO the price seems way too high.

[Jim Rhoades]

OK, so now I know that it's coated and will cover 5x7. What of the goofy f/stop scale? Could that ever be original? I don't think so. I know SK could engrave a new one but not at that asking price.

[Richard Littlewood]

I've a triple convertible Symmar. f6.8/210 f13/405 f12/325 in a press compur. I use it quite a lot. It also has a red triangle. Good points - It's small, at smaller stops it is pretty good, a bit low on contrast but sharp enough and I dont altogether mind the 'diffuser enlarger' look it gives an image. I've only used the 2 longer settings a couple of times, and I wasn't over impressed so it gets used as a 210 most of the time. Press Compur shutters are good to use if not a little bit clunky. The f stop scale has 3 different coloured scales - yellow405 - blue325 - white210.

[Jim Galli]

Dagor type but perhaps corrected differently than ordinary Dagor's. Most Dagor's have to be symmetrical and use both triplets to get full correction. Useable seperate but not great. And never seen with different focal length triplets. Schneider seemed to think they were useable as convertibles. I haven't used one so can't comment. If you like dagor's you'd probably like it but I agree it's overpriced. I'd be interested at about half that price. I have a 135 / 265 / 295? memory here. Never made a photo with it yet.

[Arne Croell]

This is the entry from the "Lens Collectors Vademecum" about the Symmar:

"Symmar f6.8 This was made in 60-480mm for early production, and was a Q9 type, Sc013. Thus it
had good coverage for a professional lens. Use 18cm for 13x18cm but it will cover 18x24 closed down. It
covers 80° or 100° closed down. H.Klarman (Appl Optics 13, 708 4/1974) dates Symmar from 1920, and it
may originally have been a strictly symmetrical lens as most Dagors were, ie rear and front cells of identical
focus. But Merte (1943) refers to a Patent DRP 579,788/1930 for a "gestorter" lens, ie one with apparently
imperfect symmetry designed by Tronnier for Schneider and this may be a new type for the 1930's. It may well
have been convertible to give cells of different focus as unsymmetrical.
These older f6.8 types are scarce in the UK and no prewar lens has been noted. It is likely however that there
was little change up to c.1950. The example seen was a f6.8/240mm lens No2,944,55x from early 1952,
coated and in shutter. It had cells of f13/465 and f12/375, ie it was a true 3 focus lens. It must have been sold
for use of all 3 foci as the iris is calibrated with 3 scales. [This is unlike the Dagor series which seem always
to have used equal focus cells back and front and may suggest that Tronnier had made a real improvement to
the Dagor, possibly by the use of new higher refractive glass to reduce spherical or other aberrations.]
Later Klarman gives 1952 as the initiation of the air-spaced Plasmat type at f5.6, and comments on the
improvements due to coating which allowed this. Again this new type was convertible. The early types showed
fairly marked spherical and astigmatism softening, which were much reduced in the Plasmat layout, but there
seems to be some curvature of field left. Later the Symmar-S gave up the convertible feature but showed still
greater correction and a much flatter field, and this was further improved in the Apo-Symmar but one opinion is
that the Symmar-S marked the point where further improvement was less obvious than before. Klarman gives
resolution curves with central resolution figures in micrometres of approximately: 1920/f6.8, 18; 1952/f5.6, 16;
and 1972/f5.6 S, 11. This is a real improvement on an initially fine lens."

[Jim Rhoades]

Thank you to all who provided such an abundance of information. The speed that you guys can come up with the answers is amazing. I e-mailed the seller about what happened to the original f/stop scale vs. the cost to have a new one made. I was told that what you see is what you get. Oh yeah, it's from that "Estate Sale"

Caveat emptor. I think I'll let this lens and seller go by.