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senderoaburrido
1-Oct-2016, 07:34
I'm continuing to hesitantly lurch towards buying a 4x5 technical field camera, and in my research I had read that the Wista's, like the SP, can only accommodate a 75mm lens at the widest. Does this factor in recessed boards?

I recently snagged a 47mm SA XL at a decent price, and I'd like to make use of it. I understand the flange-film distance isn't quite as low as the actual focal length. Nonetheless, my Cambo SCX's standards can't even get close enough to eachother to use it, even with a recessed board. It'd be a shame to finally get a camera that doesn't need a car to transport, only to not be able to use my neatest new acquisition.

Bob Salomon
1-Oct-2016, 07:57
Depends on the Wista. Wista models that accept a wide angle bellows easily use shorter lenses.

senderoaburrido
1-Oct-2016, 08:16
I'm looking at the SP in particular. I know the bellows can be exchanged on that one, but I'd prefer to be able to use the 47mm SA XL right out of the box. That was what drew me to the Toyo 45aii initially.

AJ Edmondson
1-Oct-2016, 10:02
With the Wista SP, with the front standard set to the back of the sliding focusing track and the focusing rail racked to the rear, the distance to the lens-board mount is 95mm. With a Linhof 20mm recessed board, the distance to the front surface of the ground-glass is 86mm (measured from the front of the flange). Even with the recessed board you can't get much rise/fall, shift or tilt using a 90mm. Some, yes, but not a lot. As Bob noted - there are accessory tracks and wide angle bellows available but the long and short of it is that the SP should not be your first choice if you want to alternate between wide and normal focal lengths frequently. The SP is a great camera, easy to use and well-made but it has limitations (most of which can be overcome with accessory packages at the cost of convenience).

neil poulsen
1-Oct-2016, 10:17
One thing to consider with shorter lenses on clam shell field cameras, is whether the top of the camera's housing will inhibit rise. For example, a portion of the top a Master Technika can be released and raised to avoid this interference. There's more than bellows flexibility to involved in your choice.

Alan Gales
1-Oct-2016, 11:05
On Cambo monorails the rail clamp prevents the standards from getting close enough for wide angle lenses. I learned this the hard way! :) What you can do is to place both front and rear standard on the same side of the rail clamp when using wide angle lenses. Or you could swap your Cambo for a Sinar F2. Monorails are dirt cheap today.

I considered a Wista SP but decided to just use my 8x10 with a reduction back. I did once flip an earlier version of the SP. They are great cameras and very rigid. I believe the shortest lens you can use with an SP is a 65mm on a recessed board with very limited to no movements. I have not tried it but that is what I read once. For wider lenses you need the bag bellows. I've also read that you don't need and actually can't use a recessed board with the bag bellows. Of course I'm just parroting what I have read on the internet about the SP so don't take it as gospel.

senderoaburrido
1-Oct-2016, 12:27
I didn't expect movements. With the 47mm SA XL, there really isn't much room for them anyways.

Alan:
I've been used that manouever quite a bit. I just don't like how it prevents me from rotating the back.

Neil: I hadn't thought of that. That is a good piece of advice. As it stands, I'm simply looking to migrate to a camera that I can carry around with me to other places. The Cambo SCX is not a hike-friendly or public transit portable piece of equipment. The best compromise between movements, [used] price and compactness seems to be the Wista SP. Has a bit more movements than the Toyo 45AII.

Honestly, I haven't even really been able to learn much about the scheimpflug rule (in practice) or use the movements because I'm finding it difficult to get my camera around.

AJ Edmondson
1-Oct-2016, 12:38
I seem to oscillate between the Wista SP and a Canham DLC. To me, the Wista is hard to beat for ease and speed. For landscape it certainly has plenty of movements and is (I know - overused word) intuitive with controls being convenient and obvious and pretty slick! The micro-swings are nice to have when you need them and unobtrusive when you don't need them. There is a lot to like with the DLC but for ease of use and convenience, the Wista comes in first (for me).

senderoaburrido
1-Oct-2016, 12:41
I seem to oscillate between the Wista SP and a Canham DLC. To me, the Wista is hard to beat for ease and speed. For landscape it certainly has plenty of movements and is (I know - overused word) intuitive with controls being convenient and obvious and pretty slick! The micro-swings are nice to have when you need them and unobtrusive when you don't need them. There is a lot to like with the DLC but for ease of use and convenience, the Wista comes in first (for me).

I've been watching for DLC's on eBay. While there was one that was generously cheap last year (1000 USD for camera +a lens + boards), most of them are wayyy outside my price range.

AJ Edmondson
1-Oct-2016, 12:53
You are right, they are "pricey" but I wasn't implying that you should change horses... just offering a comparison between two cameras that I am familiar with. Now that I don't spend a lot of time out on the trails I find that I seldom use the DLC - not because it wouldn't work equally well - but because the SP is such a pleasure to work with. I have come close to convincing myself to sell the DLC and 305mm Clarion simply because at 73 I don't see myself venturing to what were once my favorite environs!

Drew Bedo
2-Oct-2016, 10:30
Joel: At 65 myself, I totally understand!


Sender . . . So, lack of information regarding some camera's ability or incapacity or take a short focus lens is keeping you from jumping into large format photography? Do you think that you will only ever buy ONE 4x5 camera or that there is some camera out there that will do everything you want to do in photography?

I hope that this is not keeping you from doing photography. Get a kit together and shoot. At some point you will be able to use that really wide lens. In the mean-time, shoot some pictures.

Drew Bedo
2-Oct-2016, 14:38
Just re-read that.

Didn't mean to sound harsh. My apologies if that is the case.

The intention was to say that there is no ideal camera, lens or shooting kit. Looking for the just right combination should not get in the way of doing photography.

Cheers.

senderoaburrido
2-Oct-2016, 17:25
Just re-read that.

Didn't mean to sound harsh. My apologies if that is the case.

The intention was to say that there is no ideal camera, lens or shooting kit. Looking for the just right combination should not get in the way of doing photography.

Cheers.


Ah no, Drew, as I mentioned above, I've got a Cambo SCX monorail. I've taken maybe ~50 shots at most. I've had many more opportunities and I most certainly have the drive necessary to take more. The issue is that this equipment is so heavy and unwieldy for someone like myself that does not regularly have access to a car. Even then, there are destinations outside of a car's ability to reach that I would like to bring it to (hiking, urbex, etc.).

I want to get a new piece of equipment that is a middle ground between price, versatility, and portability in order to facilitate more picture-taking.

Doremus Scudder
3-Oct-2016, 06:09
sender...

I don't know about the metal technical field cameras, but if you find that most of them won't accommodate wider lenses, you might want to research some wooden folders. My Wista DXs will rack a lens on a recessed board back far enough so that the rear element will touch the ground glass... Certainly, with a regular bellows, the movements will be limited if not non-existant, but the 47mm won't allow for much movement anyway.

Best,

Doremus

senderoaburrido
3-Oct-2016, 08:35
sender...

I don't know about the metal technical field cameras, but if you find that most of them won't accommodate wider lenses, you might want to research some wooden folders. My Wista DXs will rack a lens on a recessed board back far enough so that the rear element will touch the ground glass... Certainly, with a regular bellows, the movements will be limited if not non-existant, but the 47mm won't allow for much movement anyway.

Best,

Doremus

The only reason I've avoided them is that, in my reading about technical field cameras, people seem to think their stability is suspect; They don't hold movements.

AJ Edmondson
3-Oct-2016, 09:02
I have owned a number of wooden field cameras in 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 and never had one that wouldn't hold movements. Some were more aggravating than others in adjusting but - in my experience - it was more a matter of getting to know the individual camera than any inherent flaw. This is not intended to dissuade you from making your choice... I also prefer the metal cameras but for me it is because they are faster to set up and easier to work with. I had a Wisner Tech Field for many years and I never personally encountered a situation it couldn't handle... but it sometimes took a while to get there! It is mainly a matter of deciding what your individual requirements are and then researching what is out there.

Doremus Scudder
5-Oct-2016, 05:51
The only reason I've avoided them is that, in my reading about technical field cameras, people seem to think their stability is suspect; They don't hold movements.

I've used several Wista DXs, a Wista SW, Horsman Woodman and a couple different Zone VI wooden cameras and none of them had stability problems. Of course, I purposely chose a set of lightweight lenses. The heaviest I use are f/8 90mm and f/5.6 75mm lenses on recessed boards on all the wooden cameras as well as a Nikkor M 450mm on the Zone VI models. Movements are plenty stable even at the extremes with those (I can easily vignette the 90mm SA f/8).

I find most metal technical cameras provide more limited movements and are a bit too heavy and clunky for me. I carry my Wista DX and four or five lenses on pretty extended day hikes, often in rough terrain. The lighter wooden camera really makes a difference.

If weight is an issue for you, maybe you should try to get your hands on a couple wooden folders and see what you think about stability.

Best,

Doremus

M Harvey
5-Oct-2016, 10:42
Just to add to Doremus's note, my Wisner Tech Field will rack a lens back far enough to allow it to touch the ground glass with bag bellows installed. And while it may not be as rigid as some of the metal cameras, and while I have to be careful to make sure that the movements are tightly locked down, I find that these are usually not issues. And even then, they are much more likely to be problems with longer focal lengths (where the weight of the lens isn't over the solid bed of the camera, the thinner wood rails are most extended, and the effects of small imprecisions in movements are amplified). It's an occasional complaint of mine, but it's mostly a matter of being mindful as you set up your shot, and you get a lot of benefits for that trade-off in ultimate rigidity.

I also live in an urban area and don't own a car, so I think I have a sense of the kind of challenges your considering-- you pay a price for packing additional equipment "just in case." But short of spending a lot of money of certain of the Ebony/Canham/etc. models, I think the clearest way forward probably is to find a field camera you like and then tracking down some bag bellows. On my Wisner, it's pretty easy to switch the bellows out, and I also know that it's super easy on a Cambo-- but it's just never going to be like clicking a 43mm into your Mamiya 7 just to grab one wide shot while at a location (not that that would have been your expectation).

Dan Fromm
6-Oct-2016, 05:37
Hmm. OP claims it is broke or poor even though it can afford a 47 SAXL. Has no car, doesn't want to contend with bulk and weight. Hmm.

47 SAXL flange-focal distance 59.1 mm. 4x5 Crown Graphic minimum extension 52.4 mm. Gag me with a spoon.

OP, if you don't need more than a little front rise just get a 4x5 Crown.

Oh, and by the way, if you use the stupid Cambo trickŪ (reverse the rear standard) you'll find that with no bellows and the tripod mounting block in front of the front standard your SCX's standards will touch. To shoot in landscape orientation when using the stupid Cambo trickŪ, flop the camera on its side. Easy, thanks to the square rail.

senderoaburrido
6-Oct-2016, 20:15
Hmm. OP claims it is broke or poor even though it can afford a 47 SAXL. Has no car, doesn't want to contend with bulk and weight. Hmm.

47 SAXL flange-focal distance 59.1 mm. 4x5 Crown Graphic minimum extension 52.4 mm. Gag me with a spoon.

OP, if you don't need more than a little front rise just get a 4x5 Crown.

Oh, and by the way, if you use the stupid Cambo trickŪ (reverse the rear standard) you'll find that with no bellows and the tripod mounting block in front of the front standard your SCX's standards will touch. To shoot in landscape orientation when using the stupid Cambo trickŪ, flop the camera on its side. Easy, thanks to the square rail.

Hey Dan, it's not that I'm broke or poor. Money is tight. I found a decent deal for a 47mm SAXL used, which I could only afford by selling equipment. A lot of equipment. Also - flipping a few dumpster bike frames I found.

I'm not trying to push a narrative of desperation. Simply trying to communicate that 1000$-plus cameras and cars, or other expensive options, aren't something I can consider.

As for using the camera on its side, I haven't tried because of my flimsy tripod. Currently using a dubiously stable fotopro that is appropriately weight-rated but awfully skinny and unbalanced for the task. Been considering a used Bogen 3021, though having those things shipped is a nightmare.