Copal 0 Shutter Change

[holgerjacob]

Hello everybody,
is it possible to change a not working copal 0 from a rodenstock 45mm lens with a working copal 0 from a rodenstock 75mm lens? Both have the 4.5 aperture scale.

Thank you very much.

Holger


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[plaubel]

In my case, a 75Grandagon out of Copal 1 didn't want to fit into a Copal 1 from a 150mm Symmar - I had to build off a plastic ring, then it worked.
Threads have been the same, but measuring the total length of the lens seems to be a good idea to me.
From old Compurs I know about different barrel lengths in spite of identical threads, maybe the same with Copals?..

Aperture scale is another thing,f 4,5 says nothing, except both lenses have the same front diameter (Eintrittspupille).

The simple math behind is:
focal length divided through diameter gives the number of wide opening, or with a look onto your lenses, multiplying the 4,5 with the (unknown XX) diameter gives the focal lengths.
In both cases, the diameter of the aparture could be different, because 4,5 is just a product of a math task.

Ritchie

[Bob Salomon]

Yes, except that you may need or not need spacers to obtain optimal performance. The shorter the focal length the more critical spacing becomes.

[Bob Salomon]

In my case, a 75Grandagon out of Copal 1 didn't want to fit into a Copal 1 from a 150mm Symmar - I had to build off a plastic ring, then it worked.
Threads have been the same, but measuring the total length of the lens seems to be a good idea to me.
From old Compurs I know about different barrel lengths in spite of identical threads, maybe the same with Copals?..

Aperture scale is another thing,f 4,5 says nothing, except both lenses have the same front diameter (Eintrittspupille).

The simple math behind is:
focal length divided through diameter gives the number of wide opening, or with a look onto your lenses, multiplying the 4,5 with the (unknown XX) diameter gives the focal lengths.
In both cases, the diameter of the aparture could be different, because 4,5 is just a product of a math task.

Ritchie

Why would it have been in a 1 size shutter? They come in 0 thread shutters.

[Luis-F-S]

Hello everybody,
is it possible to change a not working copal 0 from a rodenstock 45mm lens with a working copal 0 from a rodenstock 75mm lens? Both have the 4.5 aperture scale.

Thank you very much.

Holger
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Sure, except the focal lengths are different so the aperture scales will be off, and the spacing will be different, so the focus may be off, plus the threads may also be different, but other than that, sure! That's why SKG makes the big bucks. He's probably remounted some 10 or so lenses for me.

[Dan Fromm]

About spacing. Compur/Copal/Prontor #00 (with exceptions), #0 and #1 shutters were made to fairly tight tolerances and comform to the Compur/Copal/Prontor standards for those sizes. Lens makers knew those standards and their products' mechanical designs incorporated them.

Why do people (see post #5 above) keep on repeating canards to the effect that these shutters aren't interchangeable?

And why do people go on about lenses (I get the impression they mean all of them) need to have cell spacing adjusted with shims for best performance? I've asked posters here how many of their lenses came with cell spacing adjusted by shims. Very, very few.

Luis, I've spent a fair amount of money with SKGrimes having shutters scaled for lenses. I've had one 38/4.5 Biogon that I extracted from an AGI F.135 aerial camera reworked to fit a #0. I've had a standard #00 adapted to accept cells from a 65/8 Ilex that I received in an electric Ilex #I don't know what that was threaded like a standard #00 but had a shorter tube. I've never got a lens in a #0 or #1 shutter or barrel that needed any work except a new aperture scale to be used in another shutter.

[Bob Salomon]

About spacing. Compur/Copal/Prontor #00 (with exceptions), #0 and #1 shutters were made to fairly tight tolerances and comform to the Compur/Copal/Prontor standards for those sizes. Lens makers knew those standards and their products' mechanical designs incorporated them.

Why do people (see post #5 above) keep on repeating canards to the effect that these shutters aren't interchangeable?

And why do people go on about lenses (I get the impression they mean all of them) need to have cell spacing adjusted with shims for best performance? I've asked posters here how many of their lenses came with cell spacing adjusted by shims. Very, very few.

Luis, I've spent a fair amount of money with SKGrimes having shutters scaled for lenses. I've had one 38/4.5 Biogon that I extracted from an AGI F.135 aerial camera reworked to fit a #0. I've had a standard #00 adapted to accept cells from a 65/8 Ilex that I received in an electric Ilex #I don't know what that was threaded like a standard #00 but had a shorter tube. I've never got a lens in a #0 or #1 shutter or barrel that needed any work except a new aperture scale to be used in another shutter.

Dan,you may have asked some users but I have sold far more new Rodenstock, Schneider and Nikon lenses then you have handled and have seen many that used shims. There is a very good possibility, considering the dimensions of the shims that some users may have them and not realized that those thin shiny washers are shims. Sometimes the shims even stay on the threads and not fall off as well.

[plaubel]

double post..

[plaubel]

Why would it have been in a 1 size shutter? They come in 0 thread shutters.

Sorry, Bob, my mistake.
Copal 0 is right.
Ritchie

[Dan Fromm]

Bob, that's very interesting. Why did you detach all those lenses' cells from their shutters?

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, that's very interesting. Why did you detach all those lenses' cells from their shutters?

We had to check customer's lenses when they returned for cleaning. We mounted lenses onto Linhof and Wista boards for customers when they asked us to. When we first took over Berkey's inventory of lenses we found that they were in such poor condition that we checked all of the lenses and cleaned them before putting them into inventory. We found some of their lenses were missing the rear group, we found a 200 Grandagon with a thumb print in the middle of the front element. We found dust and fingerprints on the back of the lens cells. We also re-shuttered lenses, when requested.
So, over the years from 1980 on, we checked lots of lenses.

[Dan Fromm]

Bob, thanks for the reply. Ohboyohboyohboy.

[David Karp]

Assuming no shimming is necessary, can't you just swap the f/stop scales from the two shutters? You just need the right screwdriver.

[Bob Salomon]

Assuming no shimming is necessary, can't you just swap the f/stop scales from the two shutters? You just need the right screwdriver.

Yes you can.

[Leigh]

Sometimes the shims even stay on the threads and not fall off as well.
Worse yet is when they stick to the lens group initially, then fall off unbeknownst to the technician.

These grow legs on their way to the floor, and sneak under any available overhang.

- Leigh

[blue4130]

Yes you can.

Is it really that simple despite the two lenses being different focal lengths? I always thought that the scales would be different.

[David Karp]

That is why you can't just swap the shutters. You need the correct scale for the focal length you swapped.

[holgerjacob]

Thank you all for your inputs. I also talked with a technician from rodenstock. I can swap the lenses in another copal 0 but i have to order the right scale for the lens and have to find out where the beginning aperture starts to change the scale.


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[Corran]

All my Copal 0 scales are attached to the shutter at the same place. The only difference is what/where the numbers are for the aperture, obviously corresponding to the focal length in question. There are two aperture scales, one on each side. The exception are two Nikkor lenses that are in shutters with the shutter barrel saying what the lens is and the aperture markings painted on. Maybe that was a Nikon thing, I never noticed till now.

Unless Rodenstock did it differently?? I have mostly Schneiders.

[Leigh]

I just looked at several modern Copal 0, 1, and 3 shutters, those being ones with the white aperture lever.
These have two sets of speed and aperture scales, one on the "top" and one on the "bottom".
The "top" shutter speed scale is readable from the front, the "bottom" one from the side.

On the 0 and the 1, both aperture scales are on separate metal labels attached with screws.

However, on the 3, the "top" aperture scale is separate but the "bottom" one is on the main label.
This label covers the entire circumference of the shutter, held in place by the two screws for the flash socket.
Removing / replacing that would be a problem since the preview lever fits through a slot in the label.

These are all on Rodenstock lenses except for the 3, which is on a Nikkor W 240mm/5.6 lens.

- Leigh