Hypoclear and permawash?

[Scott Kathe]

I was told that for archival processing of black and white film I need to use a hypo clearing agent followed by permawash. The reason being that the hypo clearing agent removes the fixer and the permawash removes the hypo clearing agent. Is this really necessary? Ilford indicates that a wash in water is sufficient. I have a more detailed work flow written below:

I've just started out with large format photography and thought I'd give black and white try. I'm using Ilford FP4+ 4x5". I developed the negatives in D76 (1:1) for 11 minutes using the tray method, emulsion side down. Stopped in Kodak indicator stop bath, fixed in Kodak rapid fixer (without hardener) for five minutes and washed in a Patterson High Speed Print Washer. I made the mistake of doing the water wash emulsion side down so now all the negatives have lines in the emulsion that correspond to the raised ridges on the bottom of the print washer. If I do the wash emulsion side up in this print washer, I think the negatives will be fine. Does anyone do this? Is there a problem I'm not thinking of with this method? How about the wash aids?

Thanks for any thoughts and suggestions.

Sincerely,

Scott Kathe

[darter]

Hypo-clear and Permawash are different brand names for the same basic product. Either product will wash clear with water. The flow of the Patterson washer may be a bit strong for the negatives. I would opt for a tray and siphon, with several complete changes of water in between. Also, you might try the HP Combiplan method for film development. It offers a very good method for consistent sheet film development.

[Gem Singer]

Scott,

Heico Permawash is a wash aid (also known as Hypo Clearing Agent). Wash aids usually contain sodium sulfite. Permawash also contains ammonium sulfite. Mix it 25ml. in a liter of water. It's not absolutely necessary to use a wash aid with film, but is a good way to shorten the wash time and insure that the film will be free of hypo after the wash.

Are you certain that the scratches were created during the washing procedure? They usually occur during tray development while the emulsion is soft. After fixation, the emulsion becomes harder, even though there is no hardener in the fixer. It's a good idea to avoid washing films in a print washer. There are washers that are designed specifically for film, where the films are held vertically instead of horizontally, thus avoiding scratches.

[Scott Kathe]

Thanks for the advice. I'm almost positive the scratches on my film are from the print washer. The scratches are parallel and the distance between the scratches corresponds to the distance between the ridges on the bottom of the print washer, the width of the scratch is the width of the ridge... If I divide the print washer into four sections and wash emulsion side up will this be a problem? One sheet of film can't scratch another with this set up. I'd like to give the Combi tanks a try in the future but next I'm going to try Jay De Fehr's "taco" method in the Patterson 4 developing tank.

I work at a university and have access to a darkroom right outside our lab that's not used for traditional darkroom techniques anymore, that's where I found the print washer. We also have a Beseler 45MXT enlarger, 4x5 film holder and a Schneider Componon-S 5.6/135 that I could use to make prints.

Thanks again,

Scott Kathe

[robert_4927]

Try developing emulsion side up. Your scratches may very well be from agitating the tray and the emulsion side scraping across the bottom of the tray. I use the shuffle technique and shuffle six negs emulsion side up with no problems at all. I have never tried emulsion side down although I have heard of some people doing it.

[John Cook]

I believe if you read the directions on the Permawash bottle, you will reach the same conclusion as I have. It is dandy stuff for double weight paper prints. But the tiny amount of time saved with film isn't worth the effort and might be characterized as over-kill.

The story I heard from the original maker many years ago (the company has been sold) was that Permawash was commissioned by the War Department during WWII for battlefield photographers who had no wash water at all. They used to wade waist-deep into the South Pacific with a rack of fixed film and then rinse off the salt water in their helmet. Perhaps if you are developing b&w film under those conditions, it might be another story.

[Gem Singer]

Funny thing John,

That's exactly the way I wash my films (joke). However, I do use Permawash wash aid, just for the heck of it, with Ilford HP-5+ film that has been fixed in Ilford Rapid Fixer. Makes me feel more secure, and I need that feeling.

[Brad Rippe]

Scott, I develop film in a tray emulsion side up and have had no problems. Emulsion side up or down, you have to make sure the tray you're using has a very smooth bottom because wet film is very delicate, and either side will easily scratch. For washing, you really should use a system that allows each film to be in a separate slot, independent of each other, allowing water to freely pass each side of the film.

[Jim Ewins]

The Formulary has a divided tray (6 ) for neg dev developed by Gordon Hutchings. The acrylic tray has many hole for circulation of liquid. Negs are placed emulsion side up and cannot get scratched. If you use their FS-4 fixer, a water bath is used rather than stop bath and a reduced wash time result. I don't work for them, but use this system.

[Gene Crumpler]

John Sexton told us last November to throw out any permawash we might have. Apparently there are problems with it. I didn't make any notes as I have never used permawash.

Most developer manufactures do not recommend a stop bath for film. Just a water rinse. Pinholes might develop with the sudden pH change. I've started using the new Ilford wash technique for tank developed films. So far, so good.

If you want to see a rapid fixing time, try some gigabitfilm. It's clear before you can turn on the lights!

Random thoughts.

[genecrumpler]

today, John Sexton contacted me about perawash. He did not say not to use it, but there was a small problem. Here is his statement,

"I'm afraid that your recollection of what I said during the workshop
is incorrect. I have NEVER suggested that anyone discard his or her
Heico Permawash. It is, in fact, an excellent product, and if I
referenced it during the workshop I would have said so. You might be
mixing things up, as I likely mentioned I do not recommend diluting
Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner with the Heico Permawash, since it
generates a black precipitant. I have no evidence that the black
precipitant is problematic, but it seems best to stay away from any
chemical solution that generates a precipitant"

Just to set the record straight!

Gene

[genecrumpler]

I was suprised that John Sexton read this or else someone else alerted him to my post.

Anyway, you may have noticed that I do not post here or any other forum much any more. I use to enjoy posting, (hence 2400+ google hits last night).

I have not been posting any more, as I have put together a Master Photographers Group here in Central NC. This group, consiting of 7 juried photographers now is my main outlet for photography. We are setting a goal to have an exhibit up at all times in NC. So, all my energy is going to this activity. So perhaps in the future you may here about the TFPS (Triangle Fine-arts Photography Society) Seven exhibits scheduled in the last two months. Many more to come!

At John Sexton's workshop, he suggested that to get into a Gallery, you need to exhibit, exhibit, exhibit. Well I've done all that and been represented by 2 galleiries. The gallery experience ia highly OVER RATED! What you end up with is dealing with persons that are not good business men and often have personality disorders!!!! Or just out right make false hoods to you!

So I now have a full time outlet for my photography interests and I don't hang out on the net. I do have one post that will come at some future date. It will be a complete evaluation of Gigabit film in 120 size. Other that my experience with gigabit film, you will not be hearing from me any more!!!! I plan to be too busy!

Gene Crumpler-reformed web junky!

[Ken Lee]

You can purchase a large bottle of powdered Sodium Sulfite from nice people like ArtCraft Chemicals (http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/) for a very reasonable price.

Just mix a teapsoon of powder per litre, soak for 10 minutes max, and toss it when you're done.

Note that in the classic formula for Washing Aid (http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/washaid.php), a small amount of Sodium Metabisulfate is added - as a stabilizing agent. If you toss after use, there is no need for it.

[CG]

I was told that for archival processing of black and white film I need to use a hypo clearing agent followed by permawash...Scott Kathe

It is possible the person telling you that had a braincramp. But it is also possible he or she was trying - with limited success - to say that after you process the film in the development stage, there's more, you will need to use HYPO to fix the image, and after a brief rinse, follow that by using either HYPO CLEAR or PERMA-WASH to make the final washing more efficient (then, finally, the requisite wash too). The names "hypo", and "hypo clear" have been a source of confusion more than once.

As mentioned previously Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent, and Heico's Perma-wash are largely equivalent products. They are used to help make the fixer (which is often referred to as HYPO) more easily washed out of your film or paper.

The greatest benefit from wash aids is when processing conventional fiber based papers. They require the longest wash times and get the greatest improvements from any assistance.

Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent, Heico's Perma-wash, and other similar products are all referred to generically as wash aids.

Best,

C

[magnusslayde]

You can also use a very diluted selenium toner (kodak) or gold toner (kodak) on your washed negatives. They instructions come with the selenium toner on how much to dilute, it will increase your DMax level on the negatives slightly (some people prefer this) and the selenium added acts as a antioxidant/preservative you can also do you prints this way without any apparent change in tone or color.

[Howard Tanger]

Do not believe that selenium toner is a "hypo clearing agent" or "wash aid".
Howard



You can also use a very diluted selenium toner (kodak) or gold toner (kodak) on your washed negatives. They instructions come with the selenium toner on how much to dilute, it will increase your DMax level on the negatives slightly (some people prefer this) and the selenium added acts as a antioxidant/preservative you can also do you prints this way without any apparent change in tone or color.

[bgh]

I was told that for archival processing of black and white film I need to use a hypo clearing agent followed by permawash. The reason being that the hypo clearing agent removes the fixer and the permawash removes the hypo clearing agent. Is this really necessary? Ilford indicates that a wash in water is sufficient.

Scott--

The National Park Service employs fairly stringent standards for archival processing and contact printing through its Historic American Buildings Survey/Historic American Engineering Record (HABS/HAER) programs. Here is what they say:


Procedure for treating prints in a hypo-clearing bath will be similar to film, however, photographers should test prints to find the most effective wash and treatment times. These will vary tremendously due to the variety of print washers and local water chemistry. If a hypoclearing bath is not available for prints, wash them for at least 24 hours in running water.

Source: http://www.nps.gov/history/hdp/standards/HAER/chapter3.pdf

Hope that this helps.

Bruce

[CG]

The National Park Service employs fairly stringent standards for archival processing and contact printing through its Historic American Buildings Survey/Historic American Engineering Record (HABS/HAER) programs. Here is what they say: ...

"wash them for at least 24 hours in running water."

Source: http://www.nps.gov/history/hdp/standards/HAER/chapter3.pdf

Bruce

I've read that extremely prolonged washing does more harm than good, if I recall correctly. (damaging paper fibers?)

I'd be very careful of that 24 hour specification. Last I heard, washing prolonged very much over an hour is frowned upon now. I gather that if you don't use a wash aid, you will have a hard time achieving archival washing.

I'd be glad to hear from someone really up to date on archival treatment.

C

[jetcode]

Do not believe that selenium toner is a "hypo clearing agent" or "wash aid".
Howard

The reference was for toning a 'neg' not using selenium as a wash aid.

[CG]

There's an interesting and pertinent article on archivel processing at:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html which is an all round great site.

Best,

C

[Howard Tanger]

The reference was for toning a 'neg' not using selenium as a wash aid.

I see that but the subject of this thread is the use of "wash aids" not toning negs!
Cordially, Howard Tanger

[bgh]

There's an interesting and pertinent article on archivel processing at:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html which is an all round great site.

Best,

C

That was a very helpful article, thanks! It provided a very useful counterbalance to the less-specific NPS guidelines, which will come in very handy.

Thanks again,
Bruce

[Jim Noel]

Scott--

The National Park Service employs fairly stringent standards for archival processing and contact printing through its Historic American Buildings Survey/Historic American Engineering Record (HABS/HAER) programs. Here is what they say:



Source: http://www.nps.gov/history/hdp/standards/HAER/chapter3.pdf

Hope that this helps.

Bruce

With modern papers, such prolonged washing will likely wash out the whitening agents thus reducing print brilliance.

[Renato Tonelli]

I use PermaWash for both film and paper - it saves lots of water and speeds things up. The sequence I use is the one found on the instructions for PermaWash with more time added to the final wash. Several years ago I tested my paper to see if it met archival standards and it does. A lot depends on how you wash your prints (archival washer, tray washer, siphon, etc.) and the quality of the water. If you are concerned about following archival procedure you will need to test your paper for proper fixing and washing - The Photographer's Formulary sells the tests in kit form with easy-to-follow instructions.
This is the sequence I use for film after fixing it:
Wash - 1min
PermaWash - 1min
Final wash - 5min

Fiber paper sequence:
Wash in archival washer - 5min
PermaWash* - 5min
Final wash - 20 min
* I add 20ml of Selenium toner per liter of working solution of PermaWash

Kodak Elite and Forte papers required a final wash of 45 and 30min respectively

[robert amsden]

Buy a large size jar of sodium sufite and weigh out 20 grams for ever liter of hypo clear . Much cheaper and just as good or better than what you buy at a camera store.