Opinions on grafmatic

[jesse1996]

does anyone here have any experience with the 6 sheet Grafmatic film holders? It seems like a pretty awesome way to store more in less space with less weight than the equivalent. And do they make it in 8x10, if yes then id say that would justify making the leap to that and staying up in that format for a while. I'm getting my purchasing list together and i found the aforementioned product. Lastly, Those who use them, how do they perform in terms of film flatness? If poor, what holders or tricks would you suggest of flat film? I hear 8x10 can have some sagging issues and popping when the temperature changes.

[Paul Ewins]

No 8x10, just 2x3 and 4x5. The only test I have seen showed them to be more reliable in terms of film flatness because of the way the septum are held against the frame by the springs. This removes the variation that you would get in a typical bunch of double sided film holders. So while they probably won't be better than your best holder they'll certainly be better than your worst.

[Mark Darragh]

I have five Graphmatics which I have used with varying levels of success. When they behave they are great holders. However, in my experience, unless the septa are straight (they do bend easily), they can jam. Light leaks are also another issue to be aware of. If they fail you stand might ruin six sheets of film as opposed to one side of a double darkslide.

On a more positive note, Peter Dombrovkis, arguably one of the world's greatest wilderness photographers, carried his film in two Graphmatic holders.

[jnantz]

hi jesse1996
i have one ( 4x5 ) and haven't used it in years.
i read something a month ago on another photography forum
that while grafmatics might be a time and weight saver,
there is "focus slop" and there might be a difference
between an actual film holder's "t distance"
and what is present in a grafmatic. while i have never experienced
"focus slop" and when i used my grafmatc, i shoot wide open 90% of the time
the same goes for the bag-mags .. never had the troubles
still there are some folks who report it is real and might cause trouble.

so, ... YMMV

[Kevin Crisp]

I use them all the time. Most of the time the work fine. Sometimes they jam. So I take a very small changing bag on trips just in case. I've never had a film place issue with one and last time I read somebody testing them against regular film holders they did quite well. I never use them with anything other than my Crown graphic.

[dasBlute]

Used them a lot at first, hard to find good ones, always some light leak issues. Buy the best holders you can afford...

[Bill_1856]

There is no weight saving -- a Grafmatic weighs the same or more than 6 modern Riteway holders, but they ARE handier.
I carry 2 or 3 of them, but actually would prefer the old BagMags (unfortunately mine are 3x4).

[Alan9940]

I've used Grafmatics for several years and never had an issue with jams, light leaks, etc. But, you need to be careful when buying; look for straight, not bent septums and, if possible, work the holder a few times to make sure it works smoothly. The weight savings, IMO, is a myth. One Grafmatic is about the same size as two regular holders and, maybe, slightly heavier. Therefore, you only get 2 additional sheets of film when comparing to regular holders. One thing I don't care for is that the counter wheel intrudes into the negative area--sometimes only very slightly and other times quite a bit, depending on the exact position of the film in the septum. I like to compose very tight to the edges of my image area and I've found that, on occasion, the intrusion of the counter wheel ruined the negative for me. But, you learn to work around these things. Nowadays, I just compose a little looser on the side where the wheel is located. Sure, I loose a few millimeters of negative area, but we're talking 4x5 here so no big deal! :)

Anyway, even with the few idiosyncrasies of these holders I still carry and use them; I have about 6. Oh, and I never noticed any sharpness issues.

[Jim Noel]

Tests have shown them to hold the film flatter and at the proper "T" distance better than any 2-sided holder. I check my inserts for flatness, particularly at the corners, after each use. Never a jam because of this careful approach.

[Jim Andrada]

I use them all the time in both 2 x 3 and 4 x 5. As was said above, there is no weight saving, but there is a space saving. I think I get a little less than 2x as much film in about the same space as with regular holders, but they're heavy!

It's also easy to screw up - you have to really remember to cycle the load mechanism after returning the dark slide to its home position. One more thing - the smallest changing bags won't have enough space inside to accommodate the fully open holder. I took a really small Kalt with me to Japan and it wasn't big enough. Fortunately(???) it rained a lot and I had a bad cold and an ear infection so the three grafmatics I took with me were enough. Just in case, I was planning to reload in a hotel bathroom at night, but didn't need to.

[IanG]

I have 3, my first was rather problematic probably why the seller got rid of it :D. It works fine with 5 sheathes but nit six and that put me off.

Last year I bough two more Wray Grafmatics, both are in far better condition - one is in its original box with the instructions. Most here won't realise that they were also made in the UK under licence, or that John Thornton after being ousted from Thornton Pickard in his latter years lived off his film pack Royalites from Eastman Kodak.

The Wray Grafmatics were made fter WWII at a time when imports to the UK were very heavily restricted, so no Pacemaker Graphics but an MPP MicroPress which was effectivelya UK Speed Graphic with mostly US parts, they could be imported.

Ian

[Greg]

Years ago bought and used 2 Grafmatics that cosmetically looked like new and were in their original boxes. Didn't test them but just started to use them. From the first batch of film, discovered that both leaked light. Fortunately was able to return them. Definitely run a test for light leaks before using a Grafmatic no matter how good it cosmetically looks.

[jesse1996]

thanks for the insight guys! I may just go with a few toyo holders since i always hear great things about them.

[Drew Bedo]

Grafmatics are a good idea for some types of shooting. Thousands were made and they are plentiful on the used market.

just wish someone would make a new version with modern materials.

[Mark Sampson]

Having some experience with Grafmatics, I've given them up. My procedure wasn't always perfect, leading to bent septums and lost images. I didn't like the frame counter in the image (although you can remove them). My real problem was the effort needed to cycle the holder in the camera- the lightweight camera and tripod I used then would shift and change my composition. Norman McGrath was the teacher who introduced me to their use; but he had a Sinar and a big tripod, so stability was not an issue. I imagine that they were designed for photojournalists shooting hand-held (with Speed Graphics, naturally), for which they were well-suited. What I miss is Tri-X Pan in filmpack, that was the ultimate in ease and portability. Gone for over 20 years though.

[EdSawyer]

I have 8 of them, and use them as my only 4x5 holders for regular film (not counting polaroid/fujiroid of course). I find them great, really excellent devices. Finding good ones takes some time, expect to pay $50-90/ea for them. Most need a CLA upon arrival. I've had to reglue light traps in a couple. There's manuals for them online, including repair manuals. I remove the counter wheels from all of mine, it's an easy reversible modification.

[jnantz]

thanks for the insight guys! I may just go with a few toyo holders since i always hear great things about them.

before you buy toyo holders take a look at this thread
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?131636-Blotchy-pattern-on-4x5-negatives

[Neal Chaves]

Like so many photographers who have worked in large format over the years, I had my own fling with them in the 1980s. I was doing some aerial black and white work overwith a 4X5 Technika and models in the studio with Technika and a Super D. I won't go into the possibilities of malfunctions, which are always present and must be taken into consideration. Out of the air, I found no real advantage over a standard double-cut film holder. Usually on each pass there is only time for one or two exposures. The double-cut film holder can be changed out nearly as fast as the Grafmatic can be operated. In the studio, there was no advantage and the downside was unacceptable. There is always interest in these devices they hold their price and are easy to sell.

[ScottPhotoCo]

I bought mine specifically to use with my Graflex SLR's and they are perfect for that. As it's an SLR I don't have to remove them to focus. I've only ever had one (out of 7) jam on me and I had several with me so it wasn't a big deal. I, for one, dig mine.




Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

[Jim Andrada]

And I really like the number dial. YMMV of course. I guess it depends on how tightly you compose. I try not to compose tightly because I always wind up wanting to crop the image after I stare at it for a week or two.

[agregov]

While I agree that the weight savings are negligible, I regularly carry three Grafmatics when doing serious shooting and find it far easier to carry three magazines versus nine standard film holders. I have not had light leak issues but I have had a few holders stuck open in the field--really a drag. They are mechanical devices so it should be expected that some CLA will needed from time to time. If that's that not an interest, then I'd avoid using them. One issue I find slightly annoying, related to the counter encroaching your image, are the boarders of the negative are not clean like with regular film holders. I started using Grafmatics when I picked up a Chamonix Saber. They are brilliant for that camera. I enjoyed them enough to use them with my standard field kit. I would suggest picking one up and use it together with regular film holders and then make a call. On a side note, I know Bruce Barnbaum uses them reliously. On a visit to his studio he mentioned to a number of us he tries to pick up used models any chance he gets.

[EdSawyer]

Andrej, I use grafmatics with my Saber also. (a brilliant combo, as mentioned!) But, the Saber itself imposes it's own edge treatment on the negative (due to the way the bellows frame restricts coverage a tiny bit). Are you sure the border edge issues you are seeing on grafmatics are not from the Saber itself?

[LabRat]

An important to check (if you are handy) is the condition of the light traps... This involves taking it apart by removing the 2 or 3 screws on the inside slide on the pull handle end and the two screws on the plastic stop on the other end of the outer shell, then the inner body will pull out (don't lose the inner bar strips that the screws went into)... Then to remove the darkslide from the inner chamber, insert a feeler gauge where the stop that prevents the slide from coming out to disengage it...

Look carefully at the felt strips to see if there is and bare/wear spots in especially the ends or old tape residue that might gap the light trap... If good, vac the felt, and clean everything in there, and put it back together... Shine a bright flashlight through the traps to check for light leaks during assembly...

The hairy felt on the other side (insertion end of holder) MUST be replaced because it's shedding and will end up leaving it's shadow on your film... The good news is that the closed rubber 3/16" thick X 1/4" weatherstriping tape from you home store is a good replacement...

Remember to always check that the red dot indicator slide is always to be pushed in from the inside chamber or it will dent the sheaths while loading, and insert the sheaths into the holder with the film notch end first in, or it can bend the tips of the sheaths if inserted backwards (on the darkslide side)...

And check flatness of the sheaths on a piece of glass, and test how a piece of old film slides into them without binding first... And check the outside flatness of the camera mating surface with a straightedge...

Steve K

[Kevin Crisp]

Something I have found helpful is to put a pencil check mark on the white tab on the back whenever one delivers a flawless performance. An X when there was an issue. I can easily sort out which ones I know have been most reliable. And on trips carry a small changing bag so you can sort things out without removing the holder from the back of the camera in the light.

[agregov]

Andrej, I use grafmatics with my Saber also. (a brilliant combo, as mentioned!) But, the Saber itself imposes it's own edge treatment on the negative (due to the way the bellows frame restricts coverage a tiny bit). Are you sure the border edge issues you are seeing on grafmatics are not from the Saber itself?

Ed, you're completely right! I just checked some Grafmatic made negs that I know were shot with my Arca Swiss and the edges are clean. I missed this as a good chunk of my last project was shot with the Saber (my first time using it) and just assumed that the dirty boarders came from the Grafmatic. Thanks for pointing that out!

So, let me re-state myself, using the Grafmatics with standard 4x5 kits will give you the same boarders as using standard two sheet film holders. Apologies for adding confusion to the thread.

[EdSawyer]

Andrej, glad to help clarify that. Indeed, the Saber imparts those edges. It's not ideal but given the huge advantages it has as a camera in general, I can put up with the non-standard edge treatment. ;-)

[macandal]

Light leaks are also another issue to be aware of.

...always some light leak issues.

From the first batch of film, discovered that both leaked light.Well, in a way, I'm glad to hear it wasn't me who was screwing up my exposures. I thought the light leaks occurred because my technique (when "forwarding" the film) wasn't good. Can these light leaks be fixed? If so, how?

Thanks.

[Bob Salomon]

As most of you probably know, Graflex, in their later years, had financial problems and went through various owners before they disappeared from the market.
In the early 80s the Grafmatics were manufactured and sold through a company in Florida.
Linhof had been selling the Grafmatic, as well as other Graphic holders for many years. However, in the early 80s Linhof was having tremendous difficulty with the Grafmatic holders from FL and were finding that up to 70% of each delivery of the holders to them were defective. Light leaks and scratches were the most common problems.
For a period of time Linhof would get parts of replacements directly from the people in FL and then QC and repair as many as they could at the factory in Munich. But they would charge back to the company in FL for the repairs.
Eventually the two factories became rather adversarial. So Linhof asked us, as their USA distributor, to act as the intermediary for them with the factory in FL. I got the job of dealing with them, under the theory that since my first language is English and the factory principals also spoke English as their first language. Thus eliminating any translation problems that might have been interfering between the Germans and the Floridians.
That also meant that we would order for the factory, FL would ship the holders to us and we would ship them on to a Linhof. It also meant that when Linhof inspected the holders and found defects they would no longer repair them but instead would ship the bad ones back to us and we would ship them back to FL for credit.
While we did not any charges for doing this to Linhof, other then the shipping charges, we did spend a fair amount of time on the phone over the problems with the people in FL and over receiving refunds for the returned goods that were defective. Unfortunately the percentage of defects kept going up and the credits became more difficult to receive and then, around 83, impossible to get. So that was the end of Grafmatics and Linhof.
So beware, if you get ones made in FL there is a pretty good possibility that they were defective when they were originally shipped from the factory.

[macandal]

So beware, if you get ones made in FL there is a pretty good possibility that they were defective when they were originally shipped from the factory.How can one tell? I'm beginning to think that most of mine were made in FL!!

How can one fix the light leaks?

Thanks for sharing Bob.

[Bob Salomon]

How can one tell? I'm beginning to think that most of mine were made in FL!!

How can one fix the light leaks?

Thanks for sharing Bob.

I don't know. We just ordered them and shipped them to Linhof and to the factory. We were never involved in any other way with them and since 1980 we never recommended them.

[jnantz]

Tests have shown them to hold the film flatter and at the proper "T" distance better than any 2-sided holder. I check my inserts for flatness, particularly at the corners, after each use. Never a jam because of this careful approach.

that is what i thought.


I bought mine specifically to use with my Graflex SLR's and they are perfect for that. As it's an SLR I don't have to remove them to focus. I've only ever had one (out of 7) jam on me and I had several with me so it wasn't a big deal. I, for one, dig mine.

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co


never had the grafmatics for slr's ( only learned a couple of years ago they even existed )
but i have bag mags, i think i have 4-5 of them and one for glass plates.
i like them, simple and easy to use ( the slr's too )

[urnem57]

This thread is really helpful. The suggestions for Ice Wax & weatherstripping tape are exactly what I was looking for. Even with the instruction book, I messed up on my first outing. The proper use is not intuitive to me. I haven’t given up on them just yet. But another good point brought up here is other than for handheld use, why risk it? They are pretty cool, though. They don’t save on weight or space and regular film holders are way easier to operate with a lot less risk of losing images. Not making a decision until after a CLA and another try with cheap film.

[Chester McCheeserton]

I had them and used them frequently. I did not experience jamming or light leaks and liked that the volume was a little less then 3 holders. I bought nice ones around 2000 that I paid around 100 each for. An architectural photographer showed me how to use tin snips and needle nose pliers to remove the number wheels that protruded sometimes as much as 1/8 of an inch into each frame.

What made me finally switch back to regular holders after about 10 years was that too frequently the front edge of the film wouldn't slip all the way under the front short rail of the septum, sometimes leaving me with the image going right up to bleed on one edge of the film with a big thick blank border on the back, if I recall correctly, this happened more on verticals.

I think a number of respected photographers used them in the past though, 2 off the top of my head being Frank Gohlke and Paul Caponigro, my advice would be to buy mint condition ones and remove the numbering wheel.

[urnem57]

Thanks!

[Gary Beasley]

One little detail Ive noticed is the septums have a slight pinch in the edge film track that hold the film sheets in place with friction. If the septum is too loose there the film tends to wander out of the septum and cause a jam. Always a good idea to check your septums with a sheet of film and see if it stays put. VERY gentle pressure with needlenose pliers is all it takes to correct any problems, best done with the film in the septum.

[urnem57]

It looks like I’ve got problems with the two Grafmatics I recently bought. I loaded 6 sheets in each. A few jammed and a few I ruined by not operating the thing correctly. On at least two occasions, I saw that the dark slide was not covering the film. Not good, but operator error. I have only developed 3 sheets so far. One is completely black. One has a light leak on the side opposite the notches in the shape of the felt piece (which came off of one of the backs) The 3rd sheet has a light leak on the side opposite the notch in the shape of the rectangle with the 2 square cutouts. I will develop the rest of the sheets tomorrow or the next day to what else I got.
I expect that I will need to insert at least 1 sheet in each back, number the backs and keep track of which sheet came from which back.
The next issue it looks like I will need to do is replace the light seals on both ends of the drawer.
I need any suggestions, tips, or tricks from people who have replaced these. I have the service manuals, but they are not real clear to me as to what the procedure is.
Thanks!

[j.e.simmons]

The times I experienced jamming, I was holding the camera lens down. If I raised the camera to shooting position, the jam released. That could just be my grafmatics but worth a try.

[Tin Can]

I like all the complaints about Grafmatics

as their eBay prices should plummet now

however I have three 45 and three 23 and three Mag Bag all working well

now how do we identify the FLA ones which all seem to be bad?

[Havoc]

I have 2, gave them a good clean. As far as I can ascertain the septums are fine. But so far I have not a single negative out of them. All or not exposed, or complete overexposed. And no, I did not load the septums the wrong way round for the unexposed ones. When I load them with test sheets they seem to work ok.

[Conrad . Marvin]

Mine are all pretty old and ratty looking, but I maintain the septums so that the film doesn’t slide out when it shouldn’t and keep the mechanism clean and lubricated (pledge works). Maintained and used correctly I have never lost an image because of the holder. That being said the one problem that I have had is that one of my counters stopped working which means that you can keep on taking more and more exposures on the same six films. Luckily I was paying attention and stopped at six. I too have removed the counter wheels and have had no light leaks.

[urnem57]

Thanks for the input. Will I be able to replace the felt on both sides with weatherstripping tape? Has anyone done that? All info helps. Thanks!

[PRJ]

I have five or six of them and they are all pretty beat up. One had a light leak when I first got it that I traced to the felt on the end being bent over. Easy fix. I also make sure the septums are straight and that the film fits very snugly in them. I have two types of septums. One type has a spring type tab at the end to hold the film in and the other doesn't. I prefer the non spring type septums. They can be easily adjusted for fit. Keep them clean and you shouldn't have any problems.

One thing to mention too is you need to put the darkslide back in before you make your exposure. I had a friend that was having problems (can't remember what) and when I saw him using the Grafmatic, he treated it like a DD and let the darkslide hang out. Putting it back in puts it behind your film and presses it into place and blocks light from hitting the end of other sheets.

Because of the way Grafmatics hold film, they are better for long exposures too. No chance the film will move if the septums are adjusted correctly.

I took a pair of pliers to all the counters on mine. Those things were annoying.

[urnem57]

Nice. Thanks. I haven’t given up on them by any means. I got some “White Lightning” liquid wax lubricant from a very high end bike shop. Had trouble finding “Pedro’s Ice Wax 2.0”According to the mechanics at the bike shop only the hipsters are waxing their chains. Newer and better formulas are available. I also got some weatherstripping tape. The next step is to pull them open, clean them, lubricate them, and check the septum’s. Hey if this lubricant doesn’t work, there’s always Lemon Pledge!

[LabRat]

There were other recent posts about grafmatic use and service...

Search this site...

Steve K

[urnem57]

I pulled both of mine apart, as the tests revealed light leaks. One of them now works well. Cleaned them and lubricated them with a wax based bike chain formula similar to Ice Wax. The light trap on the other one needs to be replaced. I have read that others have used velvet from craft stores. Anyone who has done this care to offer a little guidance on this repair? I am not really sold on the benefits of these over trusted film holders, though. I need to play with them some more.