ICA doppel-anastigmat litonar 16.5cm 4.5 in Compur shutter info?

[jamaeolus]

Picked up this lens on the bay for 40usd. Shutter was said to work so I figured little risk. Haze listed as issue. Was looking for a lens to cover a 4x5 project I am working on. (See Baynton Field camera?) Got it in post today and as advertised shutter seems quite good. Lens is pretty good as well. Haze is minimal and seems to be in a cemented group. As near as I can figure it's at least 5 and maybe 6 elements in 4 groups. I took some shots using my A7ii and a BluTak cobbled adapter. The haze is an issue as is the lack of coating. But all in all it redeems itself quite respectably. I have yet to get a photo service host so am unable to post here directly but will try to link images posted on manuallensforum when I get a chance. Anybody know this lens? I am tempted to re cement the offending element. Suggestions?

[J. Patric Dahlen]

The Litonar is a dialyte, four elements in four groups.
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[Steven Tribe]

ICA was a result of the first rationalisation of camera makers in Germany( Huttig, Wunsche, Krugener and Zeiss cameras). They were very big and had a very large range of very similar cameras and alternative lens/shutter available for each model.

Shutters fitted were either the IBSO or the Compound, both of which quite reliable for their period. Early on, they were still fitted with Goerz lenses, like Syntor and Dagor. Then they had a lot of no-maker lenses like Hekla, Litonar. FInally they had mostly Zeiss lenses, including Protars and Tessars.

[IanG]

A few months ago I tested a a handful of early lenses 120mm-165mm in Compur & Compound shutters, all are optically in excellent condition and no haze. It wasn't supposed to be an exaustive test, I was most interested in contrast. The results were much as you'd suspect, lowest contrast was a Meyer WA, followed closely by a Goerz-Ihagee Anastigmat 135mm f6.3 - a dialyte, next a rare CZJ 165mm f5.3 Tessar - this was quite an improvemnent, then a tiny Goerz Dagor 120mm f6.3 in a Compound - this was so far ahead in terms of contrast a huge step change.

It's all down to the number of air/glass surfaces, particularly internal, the Dagor with 4, 2 internal, the Tessar 6, 4 internal and the Goerz-Ihagee Dialyte and Meyer WA 8, 6 internal. I also tested a brass 6" Rapid Rectilinear lens and contrast was between the Dagor and Tessar.

So you may well find the RR lens on the Baynton camera has much better contrast compared to the Litonar.

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

Haze is minimal and seems to be in a cemented group. As near as I can figure it's at least 5 and maybe 6 elements in 4 groups.

As has already been pointed out, not quite right. Did you count reflections? If so, the only safe way is to count them cell at a time.

[jamaeolus]

I took it apart. It seems to have haze in the middle of one of the exterior lenses (back lens IIRC) so I just assumed it was another cemented element. It comes apart quite easily. I'll try to post pics later today if workload allows it.

[jamaeolus]

So I did get a chance to take some photos and got them posted. I really must get a photo host.

You can see them here and my "BluTack" adapter. LOL.

http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=75530&sid=464ce81ce2c63d59e286a18f5ccf9901

[Michael E]

What's up with the rubber band? Is the Z setting not working?

[J. Patric Dahlen]

It's a nice thing with many of these old lenses, that they are easy to screw apart and clean!

The performance is typical for uncoated dialytes, sharp but low contrast. It would perform much better on a 9x12/10x15 cm or 4x5" large format camera than on a digital camera with its small sensor. And it's easy to compensate for the low contrast with black and white in the darkroom. :)

[jamaeolus]

Please 'splain the "z setting". I am a total noob to this game.

[Michael E]

"M" (Moment) selects the short exposure times (seperatate dial), "B" (Beliebig) opens the shutter as long as the lever or cable release is pressed, "Z" (Zeit) opens the shutter with the first trigger and closes it with a second trigger. Sometimes, the settings are hard to distinguish as they didn't click in place.

[J. Patric Dahlen]

He wondered why you use the B-setting with a rubber band to hold the shutter open instead of using the Z-setting.

With the Z-setting, click the shutter release and the shutter will stay open until you click the shutter release a second time. (Z = Zeit, also called T = Time).

[jamaeolus]

Ah thanks. No the only thing that seems to work is the bulb setting. The lever won't cock in either of the other settings. I' ll fuss with it though and see if I can make it work. Knowing what it is supposed to do can sometime be helpful.

[Dan Fromm]

Ah thanks. No the only thing that seems to work is the bulb setting. The lever won't cock in either of the other settings. I' ll fuss with it though and see if I can make it work. Knowing what it is supposed to do can sometime be helpful.

Oh, dear. You don't know about old shutters with Z-B-M dials. Oh, dear.

Cocking these beasts with that dial set to Z (time. firing the uncocked shutter opens it, firing it again closes it) or B (bulb, the uncocked shutter will open when the release lever is pressed and will stay open until the lever is released) can break them. Oh, dear.

[J. Patric Dahlen]

Ah thanks. No the only thing that seems to work is the bulb setting. The lever won't cock in either of the other settings. I' ll fuss with it though and see if I can make it work. Knowing what it is supposed to do can sometime be helpful.

You don't cock it for Z and B on these old Compurs. You only cock it on the M setting, because then you have engaged the escapement (the timing mechanism).

It's fun that even things that have been around for over 100 years (the Compur appeared in 1912) still is new to many people. :) I've been interested in the history of photography for 30 years but I still have a lot to learn.

[jamaeolus]

OK I think I get it. Upon closer examination the "haze" that looked internal was on the inner surface of one of the concave elements and was removed with alcohol and vigorous rubbing with a microfiber cloth. My first cleaning I had just used Canon lens cleaner and very soft pressure with lens paper. The lens optics now look very good. As to the shutter. It cocks on M but the dial will not move to other settings after it is cocked. The rubber band was used to hold it open after firing so as to use it with a digital camera. How complicated is it to make the Z and B settings work? I will need at least one of them if I want to use it on a view camera, correct?

[Dan Fromm]

Forcing the the Z-B-M dial to Z or B when the shutter is cocked will break the shutter. If the shutter is cocked, fire it. Then turn the Z-B-M dial to Z or B and press the release lever. If the shutter doesn't open, it is broken. Not following the directions (I know you didn't have them) will do that.

[jamaeolus]

Must have been broken when I got it then. The cocking mechanism won't really move in z or b and fires OK on M but won't cock in z or b. I didn't try to move it after cocking until after reading this thread and I never tried to force anything. Is it possible to fix it? Is it complicated? I'm pretty good with machines but my old hands and old eyes are not great with tiny things. If its not too big a deal I might try it if not I'll either send it to Bald Mountain or someone or retire it and buy something else.

[Dan Fromm]

Please read my post again. The shutter can't be cocked in Z or B. This is normal. If you force it to cock in Z or B you'll break it.

Ken Ruth is retiring at the end of the year and is accepting no new work. Bald Mountain is effectively closed.

If you're in the US there are many repairers.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

The cocking mechanism won't really move in z or b and fires OK on M but won't cock in z or b.

Oh my..., did you really read this thread?
Would be really a pity when you are breaking it not knowing/reading how it really works