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View Full Version : How to bring 4x5 and 6x17 slides on to 6x4,5 film



sdzsdz
15-Jul-2016, 16:50
Hey folks!

Is there a viable solution to bring LF and 6x17 slides into a smaller format for projection?
I know there are film Recorders but this business seems to be nearly dead and the services that are left are extremely pricey.
So could you imagine a solution of copiying with a macro on a lighttable?

Best regards,

Sebastian (Germany)

Axelwik
15-Jul-2016, 19:07
I guess you could try copying them into a 6x4.5 camera using a light box and macro lens, or normal lens with an extension tube. Mask around the original to prevent flare.

Daniel Stone
15-Jul-2016, 19:26
I would go with the "duplicate with film" option. Problem is, you will need a low contrast film, which are pretty much non-existent these days unless you're willing to purchase past-date film stock. Ektachrome 100(EPN), Ektachrome 64(EPR) or Fuji Astia 100F would all be suitable candidates. Having proper rear illumination for the film to be copied, however, will be the tricky part. You do not just have to worry about how "even" it is, but also the color temperature of the light source. Even 200 degrees Kelvin(or even less, depending how discerning your eye is) can see a change in color balance(which can also be good, if you want to warm up the entire shot, for instance, or cool it down).

Are you intending to display(as in an analog slide projector) these 6x4.5 frames? If so, have you considered scanning the desired frames, then printing them via inkjet onto clear mylar, then mounting them in the slide frames? I've never done this, but thought about it just now. Not sure if it'd work, just a thought.

But yes, a "light box" consisting of a piece of milk-white plexiglass, then a black "frame"(I'd use 4 or 8-ply matboard for this) to mask out the errant light. Make sure to have a good lenshood as well. Bracketing a test roll will be helpful.

Personally, I'd rather use a strobe head as my source of illumination than a traditional lightbox.

You can also over-expose and "pull" process the film being used to copy the originals. Experimentation for proper density/contrast to match the originals is recommended of course.

-Dan

koraks
16-Jul-2016, 01:21
have you considered scanning the desired frames, then printing them via inkjet onto clear mylar, then mounting them in the slide frames?
I'm afraid that will yield very poor image quality. Imagine inkjet dots enlarged 100 times. It won't be a pretty sight, although it may be a plan B especially if the projection size is tiny or viewing distances are huge.

rdenney
18-Jul-2016, 05:33
You can reduce contrast by flashing the film. The old Bowens Illumitran slide duplicator had a contrast control unit that flashed white light onto a piece of glass at 45 degrees, while the slide original was projected through it.

Rick "who would scan it and project it digitally with a 4K projector" Denney

Randy Moe
18-Jul-2016, 06:22
I run daily digital slide shows on my HD TV and on a much less than 4K digital projector. The 16 year old DLP still looks good in a darkened room. I run custom slide shows for visitors. No sound just images changing on a screen. The screens are on walls like frames and without seating areas. Folding chairs.

Some are recent film scans. Most are my entire image library dating back 60 years.

I use Chromecast to access my drives and sometimes I see an image I totally forgot.


You can reduce contrast by flashing the film. The old Bowens Illumitran slide duplicator had a contrast control unit that flashed white light onto a piece of glass at 45 degrees, while the slide original was projected through it.

Rick "who would scan it and project it digitally with a 4K projector" Denney

djdister
18-Jul-2016, 06:27
If you are projecting them anyway, why not just scan them into image files and project them from a computer with an LCD projector?

bob carnie
18-Jul-2016, 07:10
my thoughts as well

If you are projecting them anyway, why not just scan them into image files and project them from a computer with an LCD projector?

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 07:50
Hey folks!

Is there a viable solution to bring LF and 6x17 slides into a smaller format for projection?
I know there are film Recorders but this business seems to be nearly dead and the services that are left are extremely pricey.
So could you imagine a solution of copiying with a macro on a lighttable?

Best regards,

Sebastian (Germany)


Let me suggest a different aproach:


Go straight and just project the 4x5 slides !!!! Full ressolution : )

Just use a 4x5 view camera for it, using a common good LF lens to conserve image quality, you'll need a condenser type strong light source (LED, less heat) to illuminate the slide that has to be placed in place of the ground glass.

At the beginning photographers were using view cameras as enlargers.


Another way it's an overhead transparency projector, less quality... but a good start.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUKANE-622A-Overhead-Transparency-Projector/291810617911?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37427%26meid%3D906e9ae38e3d4189828d4be42d3c53b4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D182203475448


Best Regards

Pere (Catalonia, Spain)

rdenney
18-Jul-2016, 08:26
If you are tempted by the overhead projector, mount the slides in opaque masks that completely cover the glass plate of the projector. The big problem with those is that they spray stray light all over the room.

Getting enough light through a view camera is really going to be a challenge. A condenser head from an enlarger is a starting point, but projection images are subject to the inverse square law, and the viewing space will never be as dark as a darkroom.

Rick "sorta liking the overhead projector idea" Denney

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 08:33
If you are projecting them anyway, why not just scan them into image files and project them from a computer with an LCD projector?

Let me point what happens then:

1) Image ressolution , a Provia/Velvia 4x5 has an IQ equivalent of 200 MegaPix, a video projector may trow some 2. You loss 99% of the IQ

2) Colors, the infame sRGB triangle monitors and TVs have are not a great thing, Velvia colors would make a hard man cry (in AC/DC wording). This will be better when standard "Rec. 2020" in use, but for now...

3) Static contrast, in a common TV this has a (crappy) 1:100, Velvia DMax 4 (Minus DMin) is some 1:3000, 30 times better. Projected both decrease... true, but an equivalent performance ratio may be there.

Note all of them (manufacturers) talk about "Dynamic Contrast" being 1:10000000000000, in fact it could be infinite, with a perfect black if scene regulation completely shutdown rear TV lamps. Static contrast talks about contrast displayed in a single frame, and this is the significative thing.

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 09:05
mount the slides in opaque masks that completely cover the glass plate of the projector. The big problem with those is that they spray
stray light all over the room.



Thinking about it, you are right the masks are important, also perhaps, to cancel stray light, a cloth cone can be placed from slide to the overhead mirror.






Getting enough light through a view camera is really going to be a challenge. A condenser head from an enlarger is a starting point, but projection images are subject to the inverse square law, and the viewing space will never be as dark as a darkroom.

Rick "sorta liking the overhead projector idea" Denney

I use a Cambo 8x10 as a projector to project 8x10 BW slides from an contact interpositive, as condenser type illumination source I used the illuminator (with its Fresnel) from a broken overhead projector, also I tried with a MF projector (with no slide) throwing light to the slide (in place of the GG), so plain solution. The lens, a Sironar N 300...

Now I want to use a powerful (colder) LED source to reach some 3000cd/m2...

How can I describe the result ??? Lets say than one can cry of emotion !!!!!

I feel this like photo-graphy, "photo and graphy", capturing photons and throwing photons with little in the middle. Purity...

Difficult to explain how much detail and dynamic range and static contrast appears on the wall by throwing there a 8x10, one has to see it, and then one may cry...

I bought expired 4x5 and 5x7 Velvia and Ektachrome to go forward.

How many times do we look at a sunset and we figure that we can capture a composition but little of that magic ?

Projecting a 4x5 Velvia/Provia (or BW !!!) is projecting that magic !!!!


Note that one may take advantage of Velvia DMax 3.8D, now I'm testing to shot high contrast scenes being shadows way underexposed, and then throwing a lot of light throught the slide, I'll try to adjust process for optimal projection peformance. BW film usually reach DMax 3, Silvermax can go closer to Velvia, in terms of DMax, but it's 135 only, also charming.

Drew Wiley
18-Jul-2016, 10:05
Depends on your expectation of quality. A lot of this is easy in theory but a real chore to get right. Finding a suitable duplication film like Astia that is not out
of date is the first problem. Then you need to precisely color balance the light box or duplication camera itself, get the original film nice n'flat, and hardest of all,
control the excess contrast of the original. Flashing is the traditional method to do this, but inherently degrades the quality of the lower values in the image. I prefer masking; but this is way too much effort for casual usage. Digital projections are like eating half-melted imitation ice milk instead of real ice cream. Velvia
is a horrible choice for duplication work. If you can't find any frozen Astia, try for E100G.

tgtaylor
18-Jul-2016, 10:38
There was a 4x5 Noblex projector that sold for ~$3,000 in the late '90,s/early 2000's. I saved for one but when I finally had the money together, it was discontinued. I looked for a used one for some time before giving-up. Only one turned up on ebay for $2000 but it was from an east European seller with a 0 rating - not enough at the time to qualify for the ebay buyers insurance. I sure that if you looked long enough, one will turn-up. If that happens, I have a few hundred 4x5 cardboard Blaire mounts you can buy.

http://www.cameras-scanners-flaar.org/camera_scanner_accessories/Noble_4x5_slide_projector.htm

Thomas

Randy Moe
18-Jul-2016, 10:44
Thinking about it, you are right the masks are important, also perhaps, to cancel stray light, a cloth cone can be placed from slide to the overhead mirror.





I use a Cambo 8x10 as a projector to project 8x10 BW slides from an contact interpositive, as condenser type illumination source I used the illuminator (with its Fresnel) from a broken overhead projector, also I tried with a MF projector (with no slide) throwing light to the slide (in place of the GG), so plain solution. The lens, a Sironar N 300...

Now I want to use a powerful (colder) LED source to reach some 3000cd/m2...

How can I describe the result ??? Lets say than one can cry of emotion !!!!!

I feel this like photo-graphy, "photo and graphy", capturing photons and throwing photons with little in the middle. Purity...

Difficult to explain how much detail and dynamic range and static contrast appears on the wall by throwing there a 8x10, one has to see it, and then one may cry...

I bought expired 4x5 and 5x7 Velvia and Ektachrome to go forward.

How many times do we look at a sunset and we figure that we can capture a composition but little of that magic ?

Projecting a 4x5 Velvia/Provia (or BW !!!) is projecting that magic !!!!


Note that one may take advantage of Velvia DMax 3.8D, now I'm testing to shot high contrast scenes being shadows way underexposed, and then throwing a lot of light throught the slide, I'll try to adjust process for optimal projection peformance. BW film usually reach DMax 3, Silvermax can go closer to Velvia, in terms of DMax, but it's 135 only, also charming.

I also tried OHP with large slides. No Good. Now I think a horizontaL enlarger is way better. I can now throw 5x7 slides very well with my DIY LED Head, which is not the one I was using last year with Makrolon Diffusion.

Since I get too much negativity here from 'experts' I seldom share my success.

Next 8X10 projection. When I can afford it. Battling City Hall and Taxes today.

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 11:44
Finding a suitable duplication film

yes... preflash is the classic recipe, but the result it's not the same. As Astia/Sensia is not there then too much preflash would be required.

Clearly contrast control is a main concern... An option may be a pull. Provia 100 shot at ISO 12 and then developing N-3, this is with Tetenal Colortec E-6 kit, mantaining First Developer time but decreasing Temperature from 39šC to 28.6šC, the rest of the process as always.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/product_pdfs/tetenal/TetenalE6_Instructions.pdf

I've not tested it, but as I'm starting with Velvia sheets, I've planed to make some tests by acting on First development... the 2nd developer is way more intouchable I think, withoug going to lomography results : )

Perhaps another option would be using seasoned first developer with reduced or no agitation, instead rotary. Same tricks than with BW film may work with first developer, but a lot of test have to be done, I think...



Velvia is a horrible choice for duplication work.

Way sure !!! But with Provia perhaps it may be a question of contrast control and perhaps some slight preflash to control oversaturation, again a lot of tests...



Digital projections are like eating half-melted imitation ice milk instead of real ice cream.

Drew, please call the things by its proper name : ) , it is not possible to define digital projections without including the "bull" word, : ) (just joking a lot !!!!)

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 12:01
I also tried OHP with large slides. No Good. Now I think a horizontaL enlarger is way better. I can now throw 5x7 slides very well with my DIY LED Head, which is not the one I was using last year with Makrolon Diffusion.

Since I get too much negativity here from 'experts' I seldom share my success.

Next 8X10 projection. When I can afford it. Battling City Hall and Taxes today.


A challenge for 8x10 projection is the lens, it has to be fast and afordable, I was thinking about something like this:

http://www.ebay.es/itm/Leitz-Leica-Lens-400mm-F4-nice-condition-Large-Format-8x10-11x14-Wet-Plate-/191925025176?hash=item2caf9f7998:g:OGYAAOSwfZ1WbA0Y

f4, this saves half of heating in the slide, to obtain a bright image. A lot of MF projectors are f/2.8, so having f/4 for 8x10 is great preformance.


About OHP, projectors that has light source at the top are for document and won't work, but the ones that have the light source (with a fresnel) under the slide can work pretty well, just a mask for the slide is necessary, and a pyramidal cloth cone from mirror to slide to cancel stray light.

Randy Moe
18-Jul-2016, 12:28
A challenge for 8x10 projection is the lens, it has to be fast and afordable, I was thinking about something like this:

http://www.ebay.es/itm/Leitz-Leica-Lens-400mm-F4-nice-condition-Large-Format-8x10-11x14-Wet-Plate-/191925025176?hash=item2caf9f7998:g:OGYAAOSwfZ1WbA0Y

f4, this saves half of heating in the slide, to obtain a bright image. A lot of MF projectors are f/2.8, so having f/4 for 8x10 is great preformance.


About OHP, projectors that has light source at the top are for document and won't work, but the ones that have the light source (with a fresnel) under the slide can work pretty well, just a mask for the slide is necessary, and a pyramidal cloth cone from mirror to slide to cancel stray light.

That's a nice lens and i would buy it, but not this month. I have a fast lens from my OHP.

I did try an OHP under table light with fresnel, not good enough. I now have a powerful LED source for 5x7. Not too hot and horizontal projection is more easily cooled. Heat rises, they tell me. Color temp is not ideal. Yet. But LED are improving constantly while prices drop.

I'm using old enlargers with Rodagon lenses. Been planning this for 5 years. A 5X7 Elwood tips horizontal in little space. Throw the light on a good screen. Of course the old screens, which we all have, induce a 'coarseness/grain effect. Still playing.

I also have a good stash of old stock LF Chrome film. 4x5 in the 5x7 rig for now.

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 12:57
Color temp is not ideal.

Color temp can be adjusted with gels, but problem is other, I think: that SPD that LEDs have !!

I'm a bit focussed to BW slides, until now in smaller formats to learn https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/21478354193/in/dateposted-public/

I found that light source for BW projection is less critical, but to show velvia colors like they are... there is a need (I guess) of an illumination that has an spectral power distribution SPD close to Hallogen.

It would be necessary to see in LED datasheed shows how it spreads power over visible range. Perhaps by combining more than one LED source the Hallogen SPD can be matched aproximately.

Problem is that some LEDs have some narrow band R,G,B channels, and deep reds, for example are not seen as it should.

A bit it's like viewing a cloth fabric inside a shop or at daylight.

A good option is a xenon arc lamp, if you look at its SPD here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_arc_lamp

it makes clear why it was used in movie theaters. Just need a hot mirror to reflect out the infrarred peaks.

Anyway slides are transparent to infrarred and retain an small amount of IR energy, you can see it with a Sony "night shot" video camera: in "night shot" mode it retires the IR blocking filter, and black velvia slide will appear transparent when illuminated with a tugnsten light (90% is IR). But this only happens with color slides, as they have organic pigments. BW slides (silver) is not transparent to IR, and gets more heat.

Randy Moe
18-Jul-2016, 13:37
Perhaps you missed a recent experiment. X-Ray enlarged Positive from 6X17.

Not great, but a test. See this link.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?69756-6x17-Images&p=1338876&viewfull=1#post1338876

Pere Casals
18-Jul-2016, 14:26
See this link.


Great experiment !! 48" wall mounted light box !!! That's a big slide...

Never used RX film... I've to learn more about it...

sdzsdz
18-Jul-2016, 23:19
Wow! You Folks are amazing! Thank you for all your thoughts.

First I want to explain the reasons for my question. I had a 2 weeks vacation to greece lately. Because it was a family trip, I did not carry my 4x5 and 6x17 gear but only 645 with me. The task I put to myself was to shoot everything on slide and make a presentation of it. Something I never did since at least 12 years and I have never seen MF slides projected in my life. After the trip I buyed a Rollei P66S for 70 bucks on Ebay and the first time I saw a slide on my wall (not even a canvas) was...AMAZING! I have never seen something like that before.

So on coming trips, when I will use 4x5, 6x17 and 645 side by side again, I donīt want to miss this.

- Unfortunately I donīt have a LCD projector and I donīt have the money to buy 4k equipment. I think if you have really good and calibrated equipment (and I have a Tango drumscanner myself) it could come close to the analogue projection. but I think the price for the whole 4k chain would be around 6-7k Euro. So no, thats no solution in the moment. Before I do that I buy myself a film recorder arround 1000 Euro with 8k.

- this overhead/condensor idea is interesting but quite complex. I think of changing 20-30 slides during a presentation manually...puh. And what about the heat?

- I think I will try this duplication thing first. I have a macro and a very good big lighttable with 5000k. I develop myself so I can easily pull the film. But I read Provia doesnīt like to be pulled more than 1/2 stop. So is this contrast problem really so hard? I donīt have E100G nor Astia, only Provia. Is it so difficult to get the contrast from the original to the film?

Best regards,

Sebastian

Pere Casals
19-Jul-2016, 02:40
it could come close to the analogue projection.


IMHO a digital projector cannot be compared to an slide projector. If you make a good scan and you use a 47" TV (even a 2k one) you'll get pretty good results, depending on the scene.

If the scene has not the colors that Velvia has and TV don't then you are not to notice the sRGB triangle pitfalls

If the scene has low static contrast, no difference will be there

If the scene has no bright points over 300 cd/m2 to be displayed, a common TV can trow that.

So it depends on the scene: If you shot white flowers over grass with dull illumination, then the digital chain performs perfectly. A sunset it's another thing...

But impressive scenes are those where Velvia-Provia makes a difference.








- this overhead/condensor And what about the heat?



Here big surface provides an advantage, there is less light flow by surface unit for the same total power(considering also lens f/), so heat goes away easier







-But I read Provia doesnīt like to be pulled more than 1/2 stop. So is this contrast problem really so hard?




Of course, it doesn't like to be pulled because contrast decreases, so for a normal shooting this is a pitfall, but for copy work, you have to deal with nasty added contrast, and then that contrast decrease is what you need.


Suggestion: let me make a practical suggestion to speed up the tests:

Use 135 film for the copy/pull tests, make some a (say...) 6 shots bracketing with 6 different exposures, then shutdown lights, open the SLR back door and with scissors make a little cut in the film , just at the right of the shutter to mark the position of that series, repeat bracketing+open+scissors.

Then take the roll and cut by the marks made with scissors, in each fragment you'll have an exposure bracketing of 6 shots.

Develop each roll individually with different 1/2 stop pull. You only need to individually develop+rinse for first developer, later if you want you can do the rest all together, take care to not mix them to know what one is what, you can make a number of marks at each with scissor for identification...


Please post the results if you do it !! I'm eager to know about how it worked !!!!


PD: Oh... nice drumscanner, I've some (insane) envy : )