Scanning Wet Mount Fluid

[IanBarber]

From the research I have done, it appears that Kami Fluid is what is used when wet scanning. Looks fairly expensive for a 1ltr bottle.

Is this the only fluid that can be used or does anyone know of an alternative ?

[vinny]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-97341.html

[Bruce Watson]

From the research I have done, it appears that Kami Fluid is what is used when wet scanning. Looks fairly expensive for a 1ltr bottle.

Is this the only fluid that can be used or does anyone know of an alternative ?

There's a long and bizarre history of Kami fluid being used, and drum scanning drums becoming crazed. Yet, no cause-and-effect has been established. The general theory has to do with drums that aren't stress-relieved properly, and Kami's high evaporation rate putting more stress on the drums. IDK.

I used to use the SDS scanning fluid (Prazio in Canada used to import it and brand it for NA), but it's hard to come by in NA anymore.

There's also available a mounting fluid by ScanScience called Lumina (http://scanscience.com/Pages/lumina.html).

[sanking]

In a past thread Armando suggested Sunnyside Paint Thinner as a substitute for Kami fluid.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?112737-DPL-users-owners-of-Howtek-Aztek-scanners/page17

"... the Sunnyside Odorless Paint Thinner works great as mounting fluid. Many hardware stores carry it. Here are the part numbers:
70532 for a quart (<$10)
705G1 for a gallon (<$20)"


Sandy

[Bruce Watson]

In a past thread Armando suggested Sunnyside Paint Thinner as a substitute for Kami fluid.

A paint thinner? Really? That might be interesting, but not on my drums. I might think about lighter fluid though, just not for very long.

What's wrong with using a fluid that's actually designed for the duty?

[Sasquatchian]

I've been using Kami for 18 years now and have never had a problem with my Howtek drums, but maybe I've just been lucky. I have some Lumina as well and will probably get some more. The old timers operating an ancient Hell used to mount with regular Johnson's mineral oil and then soak most of it off by placing the film in an old telephone book to absorb the excess. Pain in the ass to clean, but cheap. Some said that the mineral oil wasn't so great for film longevity.

[Noah A]

I've never had problems with Kami either on my Howtek drum. It seems pricey, but a bottle lasts a while unless you're scanning a ton of film.

I buy it from Aztek. They're a great resource and have helped me solve a few problems with my scanner even though I didn't buy it from them. Just recently they got my machine back on line when I was up against a deadline. That kind of knowledge and support is priceless, so I don't mind paying a little more for my supplies.

My scanner came with a few old bottles of prazio fluid. That stuff was a mess, it was much harder to clean the negatives after scanning. With Kami I barely need to clean them at all, in fact sometimes they're more clean after I scan them.

[mitrajoon]

Based on this discussion in the scanning group on Flickr, https://www.flickr.com/groups/isf_scanner/discuss/72157664182773926/

I bought some gamsol, which is pretty cheap and available everywhere.

[Doug Fisher]

I have been watching that thread too. If I ever use up my supply of Kami, I will be trying the Gamsol. Hopefully we will see some more long-term use posts to that thread.

Doug

[IanBarber]

Anyone tried Lighter fuel ?

[Alan Klein]

What fluid do you use on a flat bed scanner?

[Peter De Smidt]

My favorite for flatbeds was Prazio's mounting fluid, which was more viscous than Kami, but the Prazio isn't available any more. Currently, I have both Lumina and Kami. Both work well. Like others, if I run out, which is unlikely in the next decade, I'll try some of the alternatives.

[rich815]

Anyone tried Lighter fuel ?

Doesn't it evaporate too fast?

[Peter De Smidt]

That's basically what Kami is, i.e. naphtha.

[sperdynamite]

Is there an easy place to actually BUY scanning fluid? Like ya know, "add to cart" "Go to checkout". Or do I always have to email whoever with part # whatever and wait for an invoice... Please advise as I want to start wet scanning my 4x5s with my better scanning holder. I'm really surprised B&H doesn't carry it.

[nbagno]

You can buy kami at aztek

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Peter De Smidt]

http://scanscience.com/Pages/lumina.html

[Pali K]

I have an already crazed drum that I'll test with Gamsol and report if this alternative is safe for drum scanning. Seems like there is already some testing with conclusion that it's safe for film.

I use Prazio cleaners and Kami fluid which has been a great combination.

Has anyone here used Gamsol with drums?

Pali

[Jim Michael]

Here is the Kami fluid MSDS to give you a basis for comparison to other alternatives https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/kami_scanner_fluids/Kami_Scanner_Mounting_Fluid.pdf

[Pali K]

Quick update on Gamsol. I used it on my Scanmate Drum after some careful testing and everything seems to have gone really well. The fluid behaves exactly the same as lumina fluid and as the MSDS suggests, it is likely 100% identical.

On a side note, I prefer the Kami mounting fluid because it seems to have less bubbles that need to be pushed out and it also dries quicker and cleaner. Gamsol oderless mineral spirit is available at Amazon and Michaels art stores.

Pali

[macolive]

I can't get Kami here in the Philippines. The european distributor is willing send it to me via fedex in a fireproof box but the whole cost becomes so prohibitive. I'll give the mineral spirits a try.

How do you guys clean up the negs after? I saw this on the 3M website http://solutions.3mphilippines.com.ph/wps/portal/3M/en_PH/3MNovec_APAC/Home/ProductCatalog/?PC_Z7_RJH9U5230GEC40I9P3RBAI2AC1000000_nid=44QC6V9L39be28QWC1BS6Fgl but they only have it here in industrial quantities. (60 lb. drum is what they said they had).

[Doug Fisher]

Did you go to your local art supply store and see if they have some Gamsol? It could save you quite a bit of money.

Look for some PEC pads to clean your film. I think it comes in bottle form too.

Doug

[macolive]

Did you go to your local art supply store and see if they have some Gamsol? It could save you quite a bit of money.

Look for some PEC pads to clean your film. I think it comes in bottle form too.

Doug

Thanks Doug! I found the Gamsol. Now PEC i have ti track down here.

[Jac@stafford.net]

This thread or a summary of it could become a Sticky or FAQ. I'm certain that in the future more of us will be looking for a good source for mounting fluid.

Just my X0 bits.

[StoneNYC]

Is there a place to buy the Kami fluid besides direct from the manufacturer, they want like $30 for shipping a tiny bottle. It's a little ridiculous.

[Doug Fisher]

The GWJ company that I mention on my cheap supplies page (http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/cheapfluidmounting.html) had better final total prices than Kami the last time I checked. If you live in a big city and don't want to try Gamsol, you should try calling around to local printing supply houses to see if they have Kami in stock for pickup versus shipping.

Doug

[j.e.simmons]

From looking at the MSDS, it would appear one could make scanning fluid from 10% mineral spirits and 90% naphtha. But I don't know anything - do any of our chemists have a comment?

[Pere Casals]

From looking at the MSDS, it would appear one could make scanning fluid from 10% mineral spirits and 90% naphtha. But I don't know anything - do any of our chemists have a comment?

If you want to later clean the film with cleaner there are many options, Johnson's baby oil is just perfect.

Kami (the one I use) eveporates completely so cleaning is not required. Also I think Lumina.


Any mineral spirits, naphtha etc can contain a diluted little fraction of heavier oils that later won't evaporate fast at all.

So a scanning fluid has to be processed to not contain at all heavy oils, I guess it can be done with distillation at low pressure and low temperture.

Then it can be done with spirits and naphtha, but make sure that each ingredient evaporates completely, if not you'll need to clean the film, and in that case better to use Kami.

[Jim Michael]

If you are willing to experiment, source the ingredients locally (paint department of the hardware store) and see if a few drops of your home brew evaporate cleanly from a piece of glass. Chemicals are sold in varying degrees of purity but I'd start with something easily sourced first.

[Pere Casals]

If you are willing to experiment, source the ingredients locally (paint department of the hardware store) and see if a few drops of your home brew evaporate cleanly from a piece of glass. Chemicals are sold in varying degrees of purity but I'd start with something easily sourced first.

Also refractive index of the scanning fluid can be important, I'd say it has to be close to that the one glass can have, I guess that the recommended naphtha-spirits mix is to obtain that suitable refractive index. So take a refractometer, then meter Kami and then make mix that has with same index.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.5b01376?journalCode=enfuem

At the end a bottle of Kami or Lumina may last years long for most of us.

But if anybody has a clear good, trusted experience, I'd like to know it.

[Jim Michael]

I don't know, perhaps the mineral spirits help reduce the evaporation rate of the naptha?

[Pere Casals]

I don't know, perhaps the mineral spirits help reduce the evaporation rate of the naptha?


It's the counter, naphtha has a lower evaporation rate than the odorless mineral spirit, as first one is heavier than the second one.


Naphtha and mineral spirit are quite similar. Naphtha is a wide concept that engloves hiyrocarbon mixtures sold to be burnt, of the kerosene (C16, 16 carbon atoms per chain) class for example, linear chains. Mineral spirit it's the same, C7 to C12, but it includes a content of aromatic hydrocarbons (rings of the Benzene type) under 25%, but odorless spirit has the aromatic compounds eliminated, so it's like Naphtha but a bit thinner.

Mineral spirit Refractive index is 1.42 aprox. Keronsene (Naphtha) is mostly the same 1.44. And glass can have 1.5. It is good that the refrative index of the fluid is near to the glass one...



Now I think that the mixture will always have some 1.44 refractive index, adding that 10% of white spirit (C7 to C12) just acts as a thinner of the nafta (C16) perhaps to be better distributed and to catch less air bubbles, I'm gessing.


The most important thing may be that it evaporates completely, so it has to be a well distillated quality product without diluted heavy chains that won't evaporate later.

[Pere Casals]

A way to eliminate heavy oils from Naphtha/Spirit that later won't evaporate may be to cool it to frezzing temperatures and filtering. This is a well known effect with diesel engines, diesel fuel at low temperatures get paraffin "solidified" and can obstruct filter, if a heater not provided in the filter assembly design.

[seezee]

I haven't done an A/B comparison to Kami or Lumina, but I have been wet-scanning for a few weeks now using Gamsol and Duralar. They seem to work just fine. No residue from the Gamsol, practically no odor. The biggest challenge is the dust — the mylar is much more attractive to dust than the film base. Even with a bulb blower, anti-static gloves, anti-static brush, and anti-static wipe, I still have way more dust than I like. Probably doesn't help that I live with a cat, so in addition to dead skin cells, there's always cat hair and litter dust hanging in the air.