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View Full Version : What 4x5 camera for the Fuji 450-C lens?



Jeffrey Sipress
14-Apr-2005, 10:46
After obtainng a Fujinon 450-C recently, I discovered that it will not work with my current Ebony RW45 or the new Arca Swiss field camera I am considering buying, without buying expensive or bulky additional accessories. I noticed it will work on the Canham 45-dlc, which had quite a long bellows . I want to continue using lighter weight field cameras for landscapes and hiking trips. Is there some solution I haven't found yet, besides the Canham?

Nick_3536
14-Apr-2005, 10:50
Shen Hao 5x7 with the 4x5 back. Not the lightest but 600mm bellows. I'm not sure what the Canham 4x5 costs but it's likely more then the Shen Hao. It comes with an adapter for Linhof boards so that might be something to consider.

Steve Hamley
14-Apr-2005, 11:00
At 8.8 lbs, many people wouldn't put the 5x7 Shen Hao in the "lightweight" category, but it's probably typical for a 5x7 woodie.

I'd try the Ebony SV45Ti at 4.6 lbs. One of the Wisners will also probably work??

Steve

steve simmons
14-Apr-2005, 11:03
You need a camera with more than 19" of bellows extension capability. 24" would allow you to focus closer than infinity which is about 180" from the camera position with this lens.

Canham and Wisner come to mind. If you are going to buy a Wisner I strongly recommend ordering it from a store that already has one in stock.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

Eric Biggerstaff
14-Apr-2005, 11:19
Would extension tube lensboards give the required extension?

I know you can get them from Ebony.

Richard Årlin
14-Apr-2005, 11:21
So, you were the lucky guy to win it. I have both a 4x5 and a 8x10 with sufficient draw to use it so if you just hand it over to me...

Brian Vuillemenot
14-Apr-2005, 11:54
I use my 450 C on a 4X5 Wisner Technical Field- plenty of bellows draw.

Jay M. Packer
14-Apr-2005, 12:00
The Fujinon 450C also works very well on my lightweight Phillips 4x5.

Chris Mallison
14-Apr-2005, 12:04
You may have a conumdrum - lightweight camera and the 450 lens. However, the Zone VI Ultralight comes to mind. Not the most stable of cameras, but definitely light and has over 20" bellows draw. Certainly less expensive than the DLC mentioned. Haven't tried mine with such a long lens yet, but it seems workable.

Kerry L. Thalmann
14-Apr-2005, 12:05
Jeffrey,

No camera is perfect, but the Canham DLC is a good match for the 450mm Fujinon C. When I had my Canham, I used it with lenses from 75mm (on a Toyo recessed board) through 450mm with the standard bellows. Here's a shot I took with my Canham and the 450mm Fujinon C:

http://www.thalmann.com/images/47570.jpg

As I had to carry my camera gear several miles on cross country skis (and I'm not an accomplished skier) to get that shot, I would not have carried anything heavier than the Canham and the 450mm Fujinon C. In fact, until I got the 450mm C, I used to regulary leave my 360mm/500mm Nikkor T-ED behind when doing long, strenous hikes.

The Linhof Technikardan TK45S also handles the 450mm Fujinon C with no added accessoires. However, it requires a bag bellows for wide angle use. It also weighs almost three pounds more than the Canham.

I am currently using an ARCA-SWISS F-Line. If you REALLY push it, you can JUST hit infinity focus with the 450 C, the standard bellows and the 30cm telescoping optical bench, but this is really pushing the bellows beyond their intended limit. And, it leaves you no room for focusing closer than infinity and the bellows are stretched so tight you can't really use any camera movements. It might work for that once in a lifetime shot, but I wouldn't recommend it on a regular basis. ARCA-SWISS does, of course, offer longer bellows, extension rails, etc. for use with longer lenses, but that adds cost, weight and bulk to a system that's already heavier, bulkier and more expensive than the Canham.

I believe all of the Wisner 4x5 models have enough bellows extension to focus the 450mm Fujinon C at infinity (ftf = 425.3mm = 16¾"). My only experience is with the Wisner Technical Field, which weighs about 2 lbs. more than the Canham and requires a bag bellows for wide angle lenses. Wisner has several newer models that are lighter, including his Flight that has 19" of bellows extension and is probably the lightest camera made that can focus the 450mm C.

Kerry

Kerry L. Thalmann
14-Apr-2005, 12:08
Oops, I forgot about the Phillips. That would be a great, even lighter, alternative to the Canham DLC. Unfortunately, Dick Phillips isn't making any 4x5s these days and they are hard to find on the used market.

Kerry

Eric Leppanen
14-Apr-2005, 12:11
Kerry,

You also at own point had extension tubes made to fit the 450C onto the lightweight (a smidge less than 3 pounds) Toho FC-45X. What was your ultimate verdict on that configuration? This would be among the lightest approaches, but did you find yourself losing contrast due to coverage flare within the tubes?

Oren Grad
14-Apr-2005, 12:22
Kerry,

Dick Phillips has said that he'll be building more 4x5 cameras in 2006. Not much help for someone who needs a camera today, though.

Kerry L. Thalmann
14-Apr-2005, 12:25
Eric,

There are three problems with using my extended lensboard on the Toho. The first is stability. Even though the 450mm Fujinon C is a very light lens, hanging it on the front of a 4½" extended board mounted on the front standard of the little Toho can be a source of vibration if you aren't real careful. The second is internal flare in some situations with the full 4½" length tube. This can be partially controlled by proper use of a lens shade, but a narrow tube is always going to be more reflective than a larger pleated bellows. Finally, like a telephoto design, front movements (tilts and swings) get squirrely when using a lens on an extender board. This wasn't a real show stopper for me, as I just used rear tilt and swing with this lens mounted on the extender board. My specialized version of the extender also weighs almost as much as the lens. I think if I was doing it over, I'd just get something like a 2.5" - 3" fixed length tube that would allow me to focus the 450 C at infinity with a tiny bit left over and help reduce the problems associated associated with my 4½" variable length tube.

All-in-all, it works in a pinch, but I find the 450mm much more enjoyable to use on a camera with sufficient bellows that it can be mounted on a flat lens board. Extender boards are great when you just need an inch or two extra, but when you start to get to four inches or more, they are not the best solution.

Kerry

CXC
14-Apr-2005, 12:25
I use my Fuji C 450mm with my Walker Titan SF. It requires front base forward tilt + front center back tilt to get that extra inch or two, but this is really quite easy to do. Focus is possible at least as close as 15'.

Others not mentioned yet include Gandolfi, Linhof Technikardan, and Layton. Don't forget that Canham also makes a nice wood camera, rather different from the metal, that is also long enough.

So that would be: Canham, Ebony, Gandolfi, Layton, Technikardan, Walker, Wisner.

These are all top quality cameras, some with premium prices. You'll need to think about how much you want to pay, and what sort of features you want/need, as there is quite a bit of variety here.

Gem Singer
14-Apr-2005, 12:31
Hi Jeffrey,

When I had a Fuji 450C, I was able to use it with the Ebony SV45TE. However, even though it was possible to focus the lens at infinity with a flat lensboard, I added the Ebony 34mm. extension lensboard in order to give myself the ability to focus closer. The Fuji 450C has a flange focal length of 425.3mm.You don't actually need 450mm. of bellows extension for infinity focusing. You may be able to use that lens on your Ebony RW45 with a combination of two 34mm extension tubes, or with a 34 and a 17mm. tube combination. Midwest sells them. Call Jim.

Besides the Ebony, the 4X5 Wisner Tech Field and the Linhof Technikardan also have enough bellows extension to handle the Fuji 450C lens, but those cameras are in the same weight category as the Canham DLC and the Canham 5X7/4X5 wood field. I don't know of any other light weight 4X5 folding flatbed field cameras that have enough bellows extension to handle the Fuji 450C.

Michael S. Briggs
14-Apr-2005, 12:42
When light weight and ability to use the 450 mm Fuji-C are leading criteria, the Canham DLC is probably the best choice. I used this combination and it worked fine. I had to be careful to hold the loupe lightly against the ground glass, otherwise the focus would change.

I now use the Linhof Technikardan 45S, which works better with the 450 mm Fuji-C. However, the TK45S is significantly heavier than the DLC.

Ted Harris
14-Apr-2005, 12:50
Jeffrey,

If you can find a Phillips that i san excellent choice. Either the Canham DLC or the Canham Woodfield. The wood Canham T57 takes either a 4x5 or 5x7 back. Mine weighs ~6.5 pounds with the 5x7 back and a gg protector in place. The 4x5 back adds a bit more weight if you want to carry both. My Nikkor 450M is one of my most used lenses with this camera since it doesn;t even begin to push the bellows extension which go oujt to near 700mm. If you do decide to go with a Canham and are buying new you can ask Keith to supply you with a fron standard set to accept Technika boards as opposed to getting the standard Canham front standard and using the Toyo/Canham to Linhof adapter.

Eric Leppanen
14-Apr-2005, 14:42
Jeffrey,

For lightweight 4x5 cameras for the 450C, I would vote for the Canham DLC or Phillips, as both are specifically designed to be very lightweight hiking cameras. The Canham has sufficient extension to focus the 450C close-up, although you may need a supplementary support (a Bogen long lens support or equivalent) to stabilize the camera if any wind is present. I don't recall how much extension the Phillips has, and as been previously noted obtaining one may be difficult. I bought my Ebony SV45U2 partially because I wanted to focus the 450C close-up (and I also liked its stability, large controls, separate controls for axis tilt and rise, and assymentric rear movements), but this wonderful camera weighs six pounds and may exceed your weight criteria.

I think it would be a shame to limit such a wonderful lens to distant subjects only, so I think you should purchase a camera that has sufficient extension to focus reasonably close-up. I personally try to avoid extension tubes (although I use one for my Fuji 600C) because front movements become more difficult (the composition changes when movements are applied) and internal flare can reduce contrast if the tube is too long. Ideally the tube should be not much longer than the rear element of the lens, so that excess image circle light is internally reflected onto the bellows and not the tube; but since the 450C's rear element is only about 0.75 inches long, almost any tube of reasonable length may start reflecting light. I personally would prefer buying a camera with sufficient extension so I don't have to deal with this.

Jeffrey Sipress
14-Apr-2005, 16:03
Thanks to all for the great, informative replies. I sure do like my Ebony, so upgrading to the SV45U sounds good to me. I just need to print some more cash on my inkjet printer! The Canham is a close second. Extension tubes used on my current cameras will be too long and unstable. I wanted the new Arca Swiss Field camera, the one that Greg Miller showed us pics of a few weeks ago, but even that would require a new, longer rail and replacement longer bellows. It's getting towards $4K. Ouch.

Gem Singer
14-Apr-2005, 16:36
Jeffery,

The Ebony SV45U has the same 445mm. bellows as my former SV45TE. You will still need to use an extension lensboard if you want to focus the Fuji 450C closer than infinity on that camera.

Donald Hutton
14-Apr-2005, 18:02
I measured the extension of my Ebony SV45U last night (I'm about to buy one of those Fuji 450 Cs) - basic extension is around 440mm but you can get 485mm with front tilt (a little more with rear tilt) on a flat lensboard. Using the front tilt and rise to get this extension is not inconvenient - when you have to do it on both standards, it is a bit of a pain. While I appreciate that many like to be able to use every lens they own at 1:1, I want this lens strictly for landscapes so for my purposes, 485mm is more than enough extension. If I want to shoot closer than 15 feet or so, I'll just use a different lens. Using a heavier lens like the 450mm M Nikkor in a copal 3 shutter at this sort of extension may stress the front standard a bit, but because the Fuji is so small and light, it will not be a problem at all.

Steve Hamley
14-Apr-2005, 18:30
Don is correct. I also have an Ebony SV45U, and frequently use the Fujinon 450 C at distances closer than infinity without an extension tube. You can articulate only the front standard which isn't much fuss and helps quite a bit. Articulating both standards is more trouble, and I've thought of getting the short Ebony extension board, but articulating the standards isn't so much trouble that I've actually bought one.

Steve

Gem Singer
14-Apr-2005, 18:59
Steve,

How much closer than infinity can you focus without articulating at least one standard? From my experience, using the Fuji 450C mounted on the Ebony 34mm. extension lensboard on the SV45TE, eliminated the need to articulate, caused no problem with camera movements, and did not induce flare. After I sold the Fuji 450C, I mounted my Nikkor 300M on the same extension lensboard, and my wife uses it on her 4X5 Tachihara. That extension lensboard is one of the handiest accessories we own.

Steve Hamley
14-Apr-2005, 19:48
Eugene,

Probably about 20 - 25 feet with articulating the front standard only. I really ought to test it. Thanks for the info on the extension board. I was wondering if it was worth it. Maybe that gets bumped up on the "priority list".

Steve

Danny Burk
14-Apr-2005, 20:04
A Fuji 450 "C" will work with ease on an Ebony SV45U2 (not SV45U); in fact I can focus a Nikkor 720 tele (about 475mm bellows at infinity) down to about 20 feet. It's an absolutely wonderful camera and won't disappoint.

Regards,
Danny www.dannyburk.com

Michael Legan
14-Apr-2005, 23:03
The Fuji will focus on the Ebony SV45U as I and others have apparently done,...often. Not sure why Danny thinks it won't?! If that camera meets your needs otherwise, you'll find it compatible with the longish Fuji, which by the way is a great (and compact) lens.

Scott Bacon
15-Apr-2005, 07:13
I'm pretty sure Danny just wanted to offer an additional camera model that will accomodate the Fuji 450 C. I believe he was making a distinction between the SV45U2 and the SV45U, not saying that the SV45U is incapable of handling the Fuji 450 C.

Michael Chmilar
15-Apr-2005, 12:51
The U2 has more extension (510mm, and 590mm with tilts and rise) than the U (445mm, and 530mm with tilts and rise).

I think Danny's point is that the U2 handles the 450-C with no extra "fuss", while the U will require the use of tilts and rise or an extension tube if you want close focussing.

Georges Pelpel
15-Apr-2005, 13:50
It works on my wisner Pocket Expedition.