GraLab glow

[Jerry Cunningham]

Does the glow of the hands fog film/paper? After I sit in the dark for a while I can see that the glow is pretty bright.
Thoughts?
Jerry

[EdWorkman]

Well you could try leaving a piece of film or paper out.
Or
Believe me when I say I've never had a problem , although I turn the dial away from film.
Then again, I tend to close my eyes in the dark.
I have a Thomas safelight on the ceiling opened a minimum amount.
ONce I opened my eyes after loading 4 rolls of 120 onto the reels and into the can and found I had not turned the safelight off.
I saw no evidence that the short exposure to the weak light had any effect

[Kirk Gittings]

A Gralab timer can fog Tri-X in tray development if it is within 4 ft. I've had that problem, tested everything a ton to figure out what the problem was and had to shield my timer from a direct shot to my tray to solve it.

[seezee]

I've wondered the same thing about the luminous dial on my watch, but considering the glow from my GraLab timer is brighter, concluded it was not likely to fog film. Especially as it gets dimmer by the second once I'm in the darkroom.

[jp]

I turn the gralab around facing away while developing film. If I'm not using it, I can throw a towel over it too.

[Bob Salomon]

Put an unexposed piece of whatever you want to develop on top of your work area, place a quarter on top of it, all of this with the lights out of course, leave the coin in place for however long it takes you to handle and develop whatever it is you want to develop. Now process that piece of whatever it is. If you see the area covered by the coin then something is fogging your piece of material. If you can't see any difference then you don't have a fogging problem over that period of time.

[Vaughn]

Put an unexposed piece of whatever you want to develop on top of your work area, place a quarter on top of it, all of this with the lights out of course, leave the coin in place for however long it takes you to handle and develop whatever it is you want to develop. Now process that piece of whatever it is. If you see the area covered by the coin then something is fogging your piece of material. If you can't see any difference then you don't have a fogging problem over that period of time.

A little better test is to do the exact same thing, but give the piece of whatever you are working a slight over-all even exposure, then put the coin on it, etc. This will elimimate the possbility of a low-level exposure that is below the threshold of the paper or film, but still might have an effect (sort of like uncontrolled flashing). I did this test for the university darkroom and pinned the results on the board. Nothing like hard visible evidence to why one does not leave paper laying around in the 'dark' for too long!

[Kirk Gittings]

Here is what I do-more or less the same. I figure out how long whatever film or paper I am testing will be exposed while processing it. I then do my test at twice that time figuring I will build in a safe leeway for insurance sake. If it fogs I move the light back further or dim it more etc. till the test is clear.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Here is what I do-more or less the same. I figure out how long whatever film or paper I am testing will be exposed while processing it. I then do my test at twice that time figuring I will build in a safe leeway for insurance sake. If it fogs I move the light back further or dim it more etc. till the test is clear.

When tray developing film I just throw a towel over the glowing stuff. :)
.

[Greg]

I have 3 Gralabs in my darkroom and they appear to be rather bright sometimes after I've been working with my eyes closed then open them. Never had a problem with them fogging film or paper. Each of the three sits on the back of a shelf so although they are facing me directly, the shelves block their glow from reaching either the sink or my major counter work area. I did one time have a problem with the orange "on" light on an outlet strip... it was mounted to the wall with no shelf to block its glow the sink. Easily solved using a piece of black tape. My biggest problem with fogging was the shiny aluminum insulation on the exposed duct system in the ceiling. Light from another room was in effect "light piping" into the darkroom. Not with a glow but with bits of focused light reflections here and there in the room. Had to completely caulk up around the ducts where they entered the room with black caulk.

One of the darkrooms I have worked in had a hanging flat plate over a switch at knees height in front of the fixer tray: allowed you to click on the inspection light handsfree. One time I was processing 11x14 film and accidentally tapped the plate and the inspection light blinked on... promptly disabled the switch.

[Corran]

I'm surprised to read that Kirk had fogging from his timer.

I have several timers and other glowy things in my current darkroom. The main GraLab I use for film development sits only a few feet away from where I load film onto reels in the dark (I don't use bags). Worse, it sits directly in front of the water bath I use for color development. I do dip and dunk style development and the timer is actually only inches away from the tanks. I lift the film in and out of them obviously multiple times, up to 20 minutes for E-6. I have never seen any fogging or issues from this.

My timers do not glow all that bright though, compared to a couple I have seen in the university darkroom. Maybe they are older.

[Jerry Cunningham]

Thanks everyone. I will run some tests.
Jerry

[Bob Salomon]

A little better test is to do the exact same thing, but give the piece of whatever you are working a slight over-all even exposure, then put the coin on it, etc. This will elimimate the possbility of a low-level exposure that is below the threshold of the paper or film, but still might have an effect (sort of like uncontrolled flashing). I did this test for the university darkroom and pinned the results on the board. Nothing like hard visible evidence to why one does not leave paper laying around in the 'dark' for too long!

I didn't suggest this as I don't know how low a level of base fog would be or what the op would be using. You also did not give a suggested time or illumination level.

[LabRat]

I have worked in (some) commercial labs that had some light leaks (that the management didn't want to bother fixing, despite my protests), and really, some small amounts of light leaking into the darkrooms didn't really bother anything... (But I did what I could to shield the materials the best I could, and keep them moving as fast as possible to avoid fogging...

Stay in the dark long, and your eyes will become very sensitive to any light that might enter that space... If you tried a time exposure of that with a camera, it would take a mighty long time to even start to register an image... (High in the reciprocity region...)

Yes, Type C color paper is very fast, and can start picking up a blotchy color cast if there s any light possibly aimed at the paper... (Actually, anything in sheet form tends to lay more exposed to possible fog, rather than something in a roll...) But if you work fast enough, and don't leave anything out that does not need to be, one will usually beat the odds if the leaks are not major...

I once was loading some rollfilm, and forgot to remove my analog watch, and near the end of the roll was a faint smeared image of the watch face that must have made contact with the crystal of while loading... (Lesson; Take off your watch...)

The biggest problem with a fog source I had, is tape on materials... If film or paper is taped, and tape removed in the dark, it will glow like ectoplasm when pulled off undeveloped materials... (If you don't believe me, go into your blackened darkroom with a roll of masking or other tape, wait for 10 or so minutes while your eyes adjust, peel off some tape from the roll, and "watch" while you do it...) And don't peel, but cut through the tape + backing paper of 120 film, as it is enough to fog the first layer or two of even slow film... (And even consider attaching a ground wire to yourself if conditions are VERY dry!!! I have pictures of lightning that I didn't take...)

But with the timer, like the others said, don't have it facing the materials... (Just in case...)

Steve K

[Drew Wiley]

Those luminous numbers and dials or buttons will absolutely fog film, even from across a small room. I always place timers on a shelf BELOW the sink, or at some
analogous spot where the film and trays cannot "see" the device at any time. Ducts light piping is a similar issue.

[BetterSense]

I have put undeveloped film directly in contact with my glowing Gralab. There were no marks on the film.

[Drew Wiley]

That's like saying you put a revolver with only one bullet to your head, and for three consecutive trigger-pulls nothing happened. Sooner or later it will.

[JMO]

I have seen the glow Labrat is describing in my darkroom when I peeled the masking tape at end of 120 film rolls off, and before loading the film onto my JOBO reels for development. I wondered what that was about (the physics of it), or whether it might have been something I even imagined; but the brief bursts of light glow were easy to recognize and a bit concerning because I thought they might have potential to compromise the images I had captured on the 120 film (i.e., soon to be developed with my JOBO processor). However, I have never seen in my developed film any evidence of fogging effects from this tape removal, nor have I detected evidence of my GraLab timer's glowing face as compromise to my darkroom prints. In retrospect, I now realize that the practice of some PRO labs I've used when they process and develop roll film; which is to cut the end of the film roll with a scissors and not pull the tape off to remove it; may be best practice. If you don't try to pull off the tape at the end of the film roll, but just use scissors to cut it, then you reduce certain potential mishandling effects. Of course, when you are working in total darkness on unraveling roll film and loading it onto reels for processing, then use of scissors to cut the film away from the backing paper can introduce possible cutting errors. ...

[Peter Gomena]

I once had a very bright Gra-Lab timer fog T-Max 400 during open tray development. It was in a small darkroom and the timer was pretty close to the developer tray.

Like the "safelight test", a bad safelight might not fog unexposed paper, but it will fog exposed paper. I suspect exposed 400 ISO film might be more susceptible to luminous paint fogging than unexposed 100 or 400 ISO film. I still use a Gra-Lab timer but keep it at least 4 feet away from exposed film. I've never had another problem.

[Robert Opheim]

I cover my timers with a piece of cardboard when loading film in holders or in the developing tank. Its one more thing that is easy to do to not fog film. I was warned years ago about glow-in-the-dark wristwatches fogging film!

[Stephen Thomason]

Well, I have not experienced any fogging as yet (that I have recognized). HOWEVER..........after reading this post and before developing 12 sheets of 4x5, I covered the faces of all my timers with black poster board, and will continue to do so. Cheap and easy "insurance."

[BetterSense]

Like the "safelight test", a bad safelight might not fog unexposed paper, but it will fog exposed paper. I suspect exposed 400 ISO film might be more susceptible to luminous paint fogging than unexposed 100 or 400 film.

This is a good point. When I put film against my gralab it was utterly unexposed because I had forgot to pull the darkslide. If it were a normally exposed negative maybe it would have.

[LabRat]

I have seen the glow Labrat is describing in my darkroom when I peeled the masking tape at end of 120 film rolls off, and before loading the film onto my JOBO reels for development. I wondered what that was about (the physics of it), or whether it might have been something I even imagined; but the brief bursts of light glow were easy to recognize and a bit concerning because I thought they might have potential to compromise the images I had captured on the 120 film (i.e., soon to be developed with my JOBO processor). However, I have never seen in my developed film any evidence of fogging effects from this tape removal, nor have I detected evidence of my GraLab timer's glowing face as compromise to my darkroom prints. In retrospect, I now realize that the practice of some PRO labs I've used when they process and develop roll film; which is to cut the end of the film roll with a scissors and not pull the tape off to remove it; may be best practice. If you don't try to pull off the tape at the end of the film roll, but just use scissors to cut it, then you reduce certain potential mishandling effects. Of course, when you are working in total darkness on unraveling roll film and loading it onto reels for processing, then use of scissors to cut the film away from the backing paper can introduce possible cutting errors. ...

Yes JM, I had gotten some fog banding from removing tape by pulling, leaving a density strip along the tape area, and sometimes on the first layer of the roll, leaving another band that developed into the film...

I tried different methods to remove film from the backing, and finally settled on this method;

I take the 120 roll in my right hand, and hold it between my thumb and forefinger (where the spool center is) fairly tightly held between, with the backing paper end pulled with the other hand from the bottom of the spool... Pull on it and let it roll out in the left hand (between the fingers), and soon the film will form a second roll that will appear (on top) and pull on the two roll edges together with the backing paper roll on the outside and the bottom (The film will roll up nicely on top)... Keep pulling the two rolls together, and you will come to the place where the taped area is...

So you are holding both rolls between the fingers of the left hand, now slightly unroll the film roll on top where the tape is... Hold the area on the edges where the tape edge hinge is, put a longer pair of scissors between where your fingers are holding it, and smoothly snip slightly into the area where the two rolls are together, using your fingers as a guide on the outside of the scissor blade...(Leaving some of the tape on the film is OK, as this will help stabilize the end when loading it to a SS reel, preventing excess curl, and minimizing the chance of crimping the film that will develop dark crescents into the film from cracking the emulsion...)

If you develop this process, it seems to be the safest way to remove the film from the backing... But if you mix-up the two cut rolls of backing and film in the dark, the backing paper roll will tear a little, but the film will not...

Steve K