Digital Negative systems-Burkholder vs. Precision

[tim atherton]

Is anyone using the Precision Digital Negative system for contact printing? (apart from Sandy who has answered a few questions already).

I'm somewhat familiar with the Burkholder system and wondering how the Precision system compares/differs?

Also, what are the basics of how the system works? (it's a little hard to figure from the website) - i.e. what makes it different from/better than (or not...) thanthe Burkholder system?

Probably going to be for 11x14ish negs for printing on silver type papers

[Jeremy Moore]

The end result for the systems is the same (I've used both), but it's the manner in which you get there which is different. Mark's Precision system forces you to create your own curves while Burkholder's system provides you with starter curves and the knowledge to alter them.

For what it's worth, I had Burkholder's first and then moved over to Precision which is what I am still using today--I just wanted explicit instructions on how to create your own curves from scratch, which is what the Precision system does.

[clay harmon]

They both work very well. However, there are significant intellectual property rights differences between the systems. The licensing agreement for PDN is very restrictive, and would prevent you from (for instance) creating a negative for someone else to use - say in a workshop setting. It is not that hard to do all of this on your own, either. View Camera magazine had an article about a year ago with a method for making digi-negs for silver printing, for instance.

[Roger Hein]

I've used most of the 'workflows' out there and they all work depending on your own criteria. I find them fine for 'alt processes' but question the results for silver printing. An 'in camera' film neg will still yield a 'smoother' print.

For added info also check out:

http://www.zianet.com/jkschreiber/articles/1280PyroDigiNegs.html

http://www.bradhinkel.com/Correction%20Curves%20for%20Digital%20Negatives.htm

[Bob Douglas]

Disclaimer I have not used the precision method, however IMHO Jeremy is not totally correct, Dan does give most of the info in order to create your own custom curve. I had to do it for my Epson C84 as Dan does not have curves for it (yep it's a cheap printer but uses pigments @2 picoliteres). Also of note that Dan states that Epson lists the print quality for worst to best in the pull down and that is no longer true at least it's changed for the C84. As far as silver printing I have had good results but will wait for Epson's R technology to reach the large format printers to test the 1.5 picoliters droplet size as it may make an even better print :-)

[Jeremy Moore]

Bob's right, Dan does provide you with the info to create your own curve, but Mark's system is a step-by-step guide to do exactly this. Since the property rights don't affect me and I have very limited time Mark's system was better for me.

[Bobby Sandstrom]

Coming from the digital world and moving into film, I was very excited at the prospects of having the kind of control photoshop gives you in order to produce the "perfect print." I bought the Dan Burkholder book and the PDN system. I happen to like the control the PDN system gives you. However, sorry to burst your bubble, if you want this for Silver printing, you might not be pleased. I wasn't. It's good, but, it ain't like the real thing. Afterall, if I'm going to travel 600 miles round trip, get up at 5:00AM, hike to my destination, pay for the hotel room, carefully process my film, etc. etc... I wan't the "Best" results I can achieve! Unfortunately, or fortunately for those who abhor computers, you get the best print the old fashioned way. Not that I disklike the darkroom, I just don't have the space to make it nice and comfortable. Believe me, I wanted very much to be able to use a digital neg off my inkjet, but it doesn't quite make it for me. Hope this helps.

[tim atherton]

Bob,

So what sized original are you starting with and what sized negative are you making (and what are you using for scanning?)

Sandy mentioned that not only did he like the PDN system for Pt/Pd but had also made some very nice azo prints as well and seen some excellent "regu;ar" silver prints as well.

I've worked on some 11x14 sized negatives that were made with the Burkholder system and printed on Polywarmtone and they seemed excellent.

If I don't get decent results from digital negs (and I may be doing some Pt/Pd, which I haven't doen for aeons) then the other option is an 8x10 enlarger and I really don't want to have go that route...

[Ellen Stoune Duralia]

I haven't used the PDN system so I can't comment on it but I can say that when I wanted to learn more about making digital negatives, I looked at both and my choice came down to economics. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying $75 for an ebook that I would have to print myself. Burkholder's system works for me and he has shared enough additional information that I feel totally comfortable tweaking my curves for whatever printer I'm using (an Epson 2200 or an RX500).

[tim atherton]

well, who'd have thunk it. the APUG has an extensive sub-forum on digital negatives with plenty answers to most of my questions

[Bobby Sandstrom]

Ellen, try to keep in mind you're not paying 75.00 for an e-book, you're paying 75.00 for the 100's of hours of research and hard work that went into the system. It might not be a bad idea to at least check it out if, of course, that type of printing is something you really want to pursue. It really is a good system, however, again, to my eyes it's just not the same as a straight silver print in the darkroom.

Tim, I did my experimenting with a 3 pass scan (meaning one scan for the low, mids, and highs respectively) using a Nikon Supercool Scan 8000 with 2 1/4 film TXP 320. I then built a file from those by masking areas from each appropriate level. I'm a very carefull photoshop user and try to maintain the integrity of the data wherever possible, so please understand, I started with a good solid file. The actual inkjet print (black only dye ink on an r300) has more sharpness and apparent depth than the contact print. The contact print was an 8" by 8" print and the negative was made on the recommended transparency film on a 7600 using ultrachrome inks. (Sorry I forgot which film it was and I don't want to tell you the wrong one.) The contact print looks very nice, don't get me wrong. I would hang it on the wall. However, it just has more of a 2nd generation kind of look to it. Here again, i'm talking small details. But... it's the details when added up that can really make a difference. We work really hard to achieve the best possible results. Why stop short.

[tim atherton]

"I did my experimenting with a 3 pass scan (meaning one scan for the low, mids, and highs respectively) using a Nikon Supercool Scan 8000 with 2 1/4 film TXP 320."

I'm talking about a scan from an 8x10 negative enlarged only to something like 11x14 or 12x16 or so - which are the coontact prints I've seen and worked with from digital negs.

That's not the same magnitude of enlargment as 2 1/2 enlarged even to just 8x8

So for me, either way it's going to be enlarged, either a a digital neg or in a good old fashioned enlarger.

[Bobby Sandstrom]

Tim, the only way to know for sure is to give it a try for yourself. Just wanted to try and give you some feedback as it was hard to come by when I was scouring the internet for any clues. I ended up just going for it and was able to see for myself first hand just how everything looked.

best of luck

[phil sweeney]

Hi Tim,

I tinkered with Dan's methods many times and shelved the projects for my inability to create the appropriate curve. I was not willing to pay the cost of the imagesetter negatives needed to fine tune the curves. However not much before PDN came out I had derived a method for constructing curves. For silver printing I had to make 3 negatives (starting with a digital step tablet and analyzing the prints with a densitometer) to make a virtually perfect curve. Thereafter with the original step tablet negative I was able to make a curve, for any chosen paper, after another test negative. I have constructed a curve for kallitype on COT-320 also. Takes a little more work than silver gelatin papers. Appears the densitometer cannot measure the highlights very well off of art papers, so a little more visual work and another test negative was necessary to construct the curve.

I was skeptical about inkjet negs for silver printing and needed the sharpness obtained from the imagesetter negative to yield a print on AZO that could compare to a in camera negative. There are some process problems (occasional unexplained streaking) with the stochastic process. For those problem files I am planning to create a curve for halftones to complete my digital AZO negative project.

[Brian Ellis]

I know little about either system and haven't used either but I did attend a lecture by Mark Newman and saw his 11x14 prints made from enlarged 35mm negatives. They looked pretty darn good to me. I've done a lot of 8x10 contact printing from original negatives and I'm not sure I could have distinguished between Mark's prints from his enlarged negatives and a contact print made from an origianl 11x14 negative (and he's enlarging his negatives from 35mm).