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Jac@stafford.net
16-Jun-2016, 16:47
I'm not certain how I would define curious or unusual LF cameras, but the spirit of the topic could be clear by example. Dan Fromm's posts from long before I was a member persuades me to bring this topic back.

My curiosity begins with the at-the-time ingenious (or not) inventions.

For example, Peckham Wray made a curious air-to-air (their words) 4x5 SLR. It used the periscope principle found in (I forget) a 35mm camera. The Peckham Wray is fragile, IMHO. Mine looks good but does not work at all.

Any interest in oddities, regardless of whether they worked? I'm interested in the domain of IDEAS. Thanks for reading.

Jac Stafford

Dan Fromm
16-Jun-2016, 17:33
Jac, the Peckham-Wray was really a press camera, not an aerial camera. Its lenses are in focusing helicals. I once bought two 135/4.7 Wray Lustrars in P-W helicals. Aerial cameras are fixed focus.

The P-W's focusing periscope is similar to the Corfield Periflex's. The Periflex is a rangefinderless Leica clone with a little periscope that sees only the center of the field focusing. Focus TTL, then compose through the viewfinder. Early versions required, IIRC, retracting the periscope manually ("Up periscope!", not "Down periscope!" as in submarines) before taking the shot, later ones retracted it automatically. Years ago a friend asked me to sell his. Naturally I played with it before it sold. Not for me.

Most of the strange ideas I've seen embodied in cameras have been in aerial cameras. Some have very odd shutters.

There've been a few very limited and odd press cameras. Printex, made in 2x3 and 4x5, with a cast body that's good for only the one lens. Rilex, 2x3 only, I think, with a lead screw for fine focus.

In 4x5 view cameras, there's the Brand 17 with, again, lead screw focusing.

Ancient cameras don't excite me so I haven't gone through the ancient catalogs on http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogsall.htm but I have a copy of Channing & Dunn that I sometimes look at. Cameras from back when people were experimenting to find out what worked well strike me as much of a muchness and so do modern LF cameras. Real innovations, strange or not, like the P-W and Periflex focusing periscopes seem rare.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Jun-2016, 17:53
Jac, the Peckham-Wray was really a press camera, not an aerial camera. Its lenses are in focusing helicals. I once bought two 135/4.7 Wray Lustrars in P-W helicals. Aerial cameras are fixed focus.

Okay, but that is not what I read in the document concerning its intent. Disagreement is good if it leads to what is right. It was described as air-to-air. Was it just commercial schtick?

The P-W's focusing [...] good info but not relevant to this odd LF camera.


Most of the strange ideas I've seen embodied in cameras have been in aerial cameras. Some have very odd shutters.

That is definitely something that would interest me. Failures are as important as successes to enlighten us.


There've been a few very limited and odd press cameras. Printex, made in 2x3 and 4x5, with a cast body that's good for only the one lens. Rilex, 2x3 only, I think, with a lead screw for fine focus.

Nobody paid attention to the lead screw which was on the back, centered below the viewing screen. Unfortunately.

The Printex cameras had one advantage - total protection to allow infrared photography. Maybe the rigid focusing tube was less susceptible to wind, as in aerial work but from their literature it seems they did not care.


In 4x5 view cameras, there's the Brand 17 with, again, lead screw focusing.

That is totally new to me! Thanks. I will research.


Ancient cameras don't excite me so I haven't gone through the ancient catalogs on http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogsall.htm but I have a copy of Channing & Dunn that I sometimes look at. Cameras from back when people were experimenting to find out what worked well strike me as much of a muchness and so do modern LF cameras. Real innovations, strange or not, like the P-W and Periflex focusing periscopes seem rare.

Worth repeating, and thus it has been.

Thank you, Dan

Lachlan 717
16-Jun-2016, 18:07
Didn't Beseler bring out some kind of 4x5 press camera with a funky shutter and rangefinder?

jnantz
16-Jun-2016, 18:16
yup, they did, a friend had one, and as late as about 1999 they still had manuals for them
i just called and they dropped one in the mail :)

Jac@stafford.net
16-Jun-2016, 18:21
Didn't Beseler bring out some kind of 4x5 press camera with a funky shutter and rangefinder?

I don't know. Do you have a resource link, or just a empty question?
.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Jun-2016, 18:23
yup, they did, a friend had one, and as late as about 1999 they still had manuals for them
i just called and they dropped one in the mail :)

Your friend had one of what? And can you point to the manual of whatever you are talking about?

Jim Jones
16-Jun-2016, 18:34
. . . In 4x5 view cameras, there's the Brand 17 with, again, lead screw focusing. . . .

. . . and the somewhat similar Newton New Vue with a revolving back I used one briefly 60 years ago, and much prefer its contemporary and more conventional Graphic View Camera.

jnantz
16-Jun-2016, 18:39
it was the besler version if a speed graphic.
i don't remember much about it, gave him the manual 17-16 years ago
seems they were air force issue
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Beseler_4x5_Press_Camera
http://www.cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/bessler_4x5_type_c_air-force.pdf

Jody_S
16-Jun-2016, 18:49
I think the oddest LF (though not by LFPF's definition) camera I've ever used was the Kalart Press with the built-in focuspot.

Dan Fromm
16-Jun-2016, 18:53
Jac, the weird shutters I've seen in aerial cameras were successful but very different from any of the shutters we're used to. Five examples:

Vinten F95. This camera shot 6x6 on 70 mm film. The shutter was an endless belt with two windows. Sort of like a roller blind shutter with fixed windows but the exposure happened with both windows passed each other in front of the film plane.

Williamson F134/AGI F139/Agiflite. These cameras also shot 6x6 on 70 mm film. They had an enormous rotary sector shutter.

AGI F135. This beast had a pair of 38/4.5 Biogons in leaf shutters. But what leaf shutters! The blades were what seemed to me to be mylar and they were opened and closed by a pair of opposed solenoids. One solenoid whacked the shutter open, the other whacked it closed. The shutters fired alternately. The gates weren't quite square and were a little smaller than 6x6. 5" roll film, of course. Not a stereo camera.

S.F.O.M. 680/681 (6x6 on 70 mm film) and Omera 31 (and other models, 127 x 127 on 5" roll film) had rotating slat shutters. One slat assembly for each shutter speed. I gather that shutter speed was set before each photo recon mission.

Lachlan 717
16-Jun-2016, 22:26
I don't know. Do you have a resource link, or just a [SIC] empty question?
.

I don't know. Do you want me to look for a resource link, or was this just a vacuous question?

Throughout history and throughout literature, the rhetorical question has been widely used as a prompt for those who have an answer to submit it they so desire. It is a social norm to both ask a rhetorical question whilst not expecting an answer, as well as to disregard the rhetorical nature and answer it anyway.

The priggish notion of calling someone on their use of such a question smack of both arrogance and despotic condescension.

Too bad you didn't take the time to consider whether your response was being rude, let alone hypocritical in its (similar) phrasing, nor did you take the time to check your spelling.

Your chronically acerbic attitude on this Forum grows tiresome...

Jim Jones
17-Jun-2016, 05:15
Sixty-five years ago I was the proud owner of a Mercury II 35mm camera, with a huge hump in the top to house its rotary shutter. That shutter precluded the possibility of a rangefinder. However, it was more accurate than the shutters in Leica and Contax. The Argus C3 with its almost as funky shutter design and hard-to-adjust rangefinder outsold the better designed and built Mercury. Another Mercury innovation in its prewar model was the World's first hot shoe for flash.

Pfsor
17-Jun-2016, 06:16
Five examples:

Vinten F95. This camera shot 6x6 on 70 mm film. The shutter was an endless belt with two windows. Sort of like a roller blind shutter with fixed windows but the exposure happened with both windows passed each other in front of the film plane.

Williamson F134/AGI F139/Agiflite. These cameras also shot 6x6 on 70 mm film. They had an enormous rotary sector shutter.

AGI F135. This beast had a pair of 38/4.5 Biogons in leaf shutters. But what leaf shutters! The blades were what seemed to me to be mylar and they were opened and closed by a pair of opposed solenoids. One solenoid whacked the shutter open, the other whacked it closed. The shutters fired alternately. The gates weren't quite square and were a little smaller than 6x6. 5" roll film, of course. Not a stereo camera.

S.F.O.M. 680/681 (6x6 on 70 mm film) and Omera 31 (and other models, 127 x 127 on 5" roll film) had rotating slat shutters. One slat assembly for each shutter speed. I gather that shutter speed was set before each photo recon mission.


Sixty-five years ago I was the proud owner of a Mercury II 35mm camera, with a huge hump in the top to house its rotary shutter.

Am I missing something? In what sense are these examples unusual LF cameras??

DrTang
17-Jun-2016, 06:42
I had a 5x7 'color camera' once... one lens, three film holders

not a complete camera..but I had the back end of a 4x5 plate camera from an electron microscope once as well

EdSawyer
17-Jun-2016, 06:45
Not sure if this is really *that* unusual but I only know of a few others, and most of those are just a few pictures online of previous auctions, etc.

http://edsawyer.com/lens/arca_reflex/arca_reflex.3.jpg

Jac@stafford.net
17-Jun-2016, 07:22
I don't know. Do you want me to look for a resource link, or was this just a vacuous question?

A vacuous question, to be sure. Belated thanks for mentioning the Beseler. I do remember now their military press camera.
.

Jac@stafford.net
17-Jun-2016, 07:31
Not sure if this is really *that* unusual [...]

No problem. This is not a competition; it is good to see various design ideas. That Arca reflex is very clean looking.

Dan's information about shutters was enlightening. Here is one that I would like to find again. It was for a Metrogon lens in an 8x10" research (sky) camera. I modified it for manual B setting and retained the solenoid DC electric trigger. (Just edited to correct camera & lens info)

151936

Dan Fromm
17-Jun-2016, 08:16
Am I missing something? In what sense are these examples unusual LF cameras??Fair question.

I was asked about odd shutters in aerial cameras. The Omera 31 I mentioned is LF. Most of the USAF aerial cameras that we think of as 4x5 more-or-less actually shot 4.5 x 4.5 on 5" roll film.

Tin Can
17-Jun-2016, 08:25
https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7080/27629049642_c754bc8201_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/J6u6SS)Printex 4x5 (https://flic.kr/p/J6u6SS) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7513/27695871246_942cbaf35e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JcozBu)Printex 4x5 (https://flic.kr/p/JcozBu) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7443/27695871096_a134281255_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JcozyU)Printex 4x5 (https://flic.kr/p/JcozyU) by moe.randy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Printex 4X5 which is a handful for me. BUT has a very simple Hugo Meyer RF coupling that is easily adjustable and perfectly adjusted as found.

Not heavy, but not comfy no matter what I try.

jnantz
17-Jun-2016, 08:52
I don't know. Do you want me to look for a resource link, or was this just a vacuous question?


i already linked to a photograph of the camera and manual,
it was no trouble at all, and took about 30 seconds.
the unusual thing from what i remember is the2 leaf focal plane shutter
not the single slit the graflex cameras have ..
but then again it only had something like 3 speeds
instead of the armload of speeds the speeds and slrs have.

Paul Cunningham
17-Jun-2016, 09:05
Jac, the Peckham-Wray was really a press camera, not an aerial camera. Its lenses are in focusing helicals. I once bought two 135/4.7 Wray Lustrars in P-W helicals. Aerial cameras are fixed focus.

An air-to-ground aerial camera would be fixed focus. An air-to-air, used to shoot other planes, would probably not be.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dan Fromm
17-Jun-2016, 09:33
An air-to-ground aerial camera would be fixed focus. An air-to-air, used to shoot other planes, would probably not be.

I'm not at home, don't have my copy of Eyes of the RAF ready to hand. IIRC all of the aerial cameras mentioned in it, including the Agiflite and predecessors, which were shot hand-held, are fixed focus.

I could be wrong but I think you're mistaken. Would you please give a few examples of aerial cameras? Hand held Linhof aerial cameras, about which I know little, might be.

Jac@stafford.net
17-Jun-2016, 10:01
Yea, Randy Moe! Thanks for the pictures. I have more Printex cameras than I can recall. Got 'em long, long ago in Illinois when they were being dumped.

Your photo of the linkage from lens tube to rangefinder reminds me that they decoupled easily. A bummer. My fix was to cut a piece of steel bar just tall enough to fit horizontally under the lens' coupling arm. The coupling then rides back and forth nicely, never loosing the notch position.


Not heavy, but not comfy

The cure is to attach a Linhof anatomical grip. (The camera shown was an utter failure of my build effort because it could not focus, but most of all because I cracked the body.)

151944

Jac@stafford.net
17-Jun-2016, 10:17
I could be wrong but I think you're mistaken. Would you please give a few examples of aerial cameras? Hand held Linhof aerial cameras, about which I know little, might be.

The Linhof aerial camera lenses are fixed-focus as well.

One aircraft oriented hand-held 4x5 that focused was mentioned in a earlier post in this thread: the Peckham Wray, but as Dan reminded me, it is ambiguously described in web titles as a 'press camera', and an authoritative article states that it was specifically intended for in-flight aircraft photography, an air-to-air camera as Paul Cunningham wrote (and even an SLR!) Oh, IRL it really sucks to use, and any you find will likely be broken - the SLR-like optics yellowed, mirror linkage shot, focal plane shutter nonfunctional (but one can still use the leaf shutter). But it is pretty in a mongrel kind of way.

EDIT - according the the article, the Peckham Wray WAS later modified to be more of a press camera for land base use.

Pfsor
17-Jun-2016, 12:56
Fair question.

Most of the USAF aerial cameras that we think of as 4x5 more-or-less actually shot 4.5 x 4.5 on 5" roll film.
One of the reasons for it was that it was easier to evaluate pictures when they had the same degree of distortions in all directions.

jnantz
17-Jun-2016, 13:12
jac

ever seen a land 600 portrait camera ?
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/polaroid-land-portrait-camera-model-600-excellent-condition

takes standard 4x5 film/plate/plaroid/readyload holders
and is fixed focus, fixed aperture and shutter speed

Bob Salomon
17-Jun-2016, 13:15
The Linhof aerial camera lenses are fixed-focus as well.

One aircraft oriented hand-held 4x5 that focused was mentioned in a earlier post in this thread: the Peckham Wray, but as Dan reminded me, it is ambiguously described in web titles as a 'press camera', and an authoritative article states that it was specifically intended for in-flight aircraft photography, an air-to-air camera as Paul Cunningham wrote (and even an SLR!) Oh, IRL it really sucks to use, and any you find will likely be broken - the SLR-like optics yellowed, mirror linkage shot, focal plane shutter nonfunctional (but one can still use the leaf shutter). But it is pretty in a mongrel kind of way.

EDIT - according the the article, the Peckham Wray WAS later modified to be more of a press camera for land base use.
Only the 90 was fixed focus, the others all had a helical focusing mount. Also, except for the wide, all of the other lenses for the Aerotronica also had a helical focus mount.

Henry Suryo
18-Jun-2016, 07:35
The Linhof aerial camera lenses are fixed-focus as well.

One aircraft oriented hand-held 4x5 that focused was mentioned in a earlier post in this thread: the Peckham Wray, but as Dan reminded me, it is ambiguously described in web titles as a 'press camera', and an authoritative article states that it was specifically intended for in-flight aircraft photography, an air-to-air camera as Paul Cunningham wrote (and even an SLR!) Oh, IRL it really sucks to use, and any you find will likely be broken - the SLR-like optics yellowed, mirror linkage shot, focal plane shutter nonfunctional (but one can still use the leaf shutter). But it is pretty in a mongrel kind of way.

EDIT - according the the article, the Peckham Wray WAS later modified to be more of a press camera for land base use.

On the contrary Jac, my two working black beauties :): the first camera came with only two 135mm helical mounts and I mounted a 135mm F3.5 Xenotar and a 135mm F5.6 Apo Symmar and calibrated the infinity focus to the scales. The second set is complete with a 135mm F4.7 Lustrar and a 9" F6.3 Plustrar in matching helical mounts and original hoods and filters. I ended up selling the second set but still use the first set quite regularly. With several Grafmatics, it handholds well for rapid shooting but on the heavy side. Shaped like a giant Leica M.

Jac@stafford.net
18-Jun-2016, 07:41
On the contrary Jac, my two working black beauties :) [...]

WOW! Henry, you the first person I've known to have one, let alone two! And in working condition! Good for you.

Henry Suryo
20-Jun-2016, 15:02
Cheers Jac. To date, I think I've exposed about 200 sheets of film with the focal plane shutter. As you're probably aware, it's the self-capping double-curtain type with adjustable slit and single tension. It seems simple and robust enough but have to always remember to set the speed before winding.

Jac@stafford.net
21-Jun-2016, 06:11
Cheers Jac. To date, I think I've exposed about 200 sheets of film with the focal plane shutter. As you're probably aware, it's the self-capping double-curtain type with adjustable slit and single tension. It seems simple and robust enough but have to always remember to set the speed before winding.

I appreciate the caution, Henry. I learned to do that on other cameras, but a reminder is good. I wish I were talented enough to repair the shutter. Will sell the camera rather than try. Best of luck to you!

DrTang
21-Jun-2016, 07:26
jac

ever seen a land 600 portrait camera ?
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/polaroid-land-portrait-camera-model-600-excellent-condition

takes standard 4x5 film/plate/plaroid/readyload holders
and is fixed focus, fixed aperture and shutter speed

that looks like their 'graph check' or whatever it was called... my golf instructor used one to check swings

I ended up with them on several occasions even trying to adapt to sheet film and then capping all lenses but one for 8 exposures to make a cool 8 image story on one sheet of film - had to rate tri-x at 1600 though for that to work

jnantz
21-Jun-2016, 07:38
i've done that dr tang :)
( not with golf, but with a kid just learning how to ride a bike :) )
it has 6 separate buttons to depress each shutter down separately,
or the big handle to fire them off at the same time.
these days i use it for making stereoscopic trichomes ...
it works well ... been trying to adapt a modern flash to it,
the cord / connection needs an "upgrade" on mine.

Mark Sawyer
21-Jun-2016, 11:09
Here's an odd one you see once in a while, a Noba 5x7 Studio Camera. Made in Mexico by Eugenio Espino Barros y Rebouche, it has some interesting innovations, like the front and rear focus being driven by what look like automotive fan belts, so you can focus the front or rear from the rear of the camera. You can read the maker's life story at: http://v1.zonezero.com/exposiciones/fotografos/espino/intro.html