Sinar F, Norma Hybrid Camera

[neil poulsen]

Given some equipment I’ve recently obtained, I’ve had the occasion to match a Sinar F, 4x5 rear standard with a Sinar Norma front standard. The resulting camera is interesting enough, that I thought I would begin a thread.

The rear standard did not include a film back, so I added a Norma film back that I had on hand.

Here are some of the advantages that I see in this camera.

> It melds some of the best features of both cameras. For example, it has the fine machining and precision focusing of the front Norma standard, and the depth of field capabilities of the rear, Sinar F standard. I installed an F ground glass in the Norma film back to retain its ability to predict DOF for swing and tilt.

> I have never cared for the long clamp of the Sinar cameras, given its susceptibility to tuning fork vibration. This hybrid “Norma-F” camera operates just fine with the Norma’s short clamp.

> At 46mm with a flat lensboard, the minimum extension on this camera is shorter than that of the F, the Norma, or of many other cameras. (See photos.) Compare this with 56mm for an all Norma camera, or 60mm for a Sinar F, F1, or F2. With a recessed lensboard, the minimum extension drops 30mm (according to B&H specs) to about 16mm! (Note that this could be limited somewhat by the bag bellows used.) There isn’t any wide view camera film nor MF digital lens with which this camera couldn’t easily be used.

> As a personal preference, I like being able to set the front standard to a given height, and then fine-tune the needed rise using the posts of the F’s rear standard.

> This camera packs better than Norma camera, and at least as well as a Sinar F. (See photo.) In backpacking this camera, I would probably leave the clamp on the tripod head. Still, the Norma clamp is small enough to fit inside the Sinar standard bellows as shown in a photo.

A few additional comments:

F rear standards do not have a locking focus, which I don’t see as a problem. But if one comes along at a reasonable price, I may replace this rear standard with that of an F2, which do have focus mechanisms that lock. Note that some Norma front standards do not have locking focus mechanisms.

This camera doesn’t have the rise of either an F or a Norma 4x5. But at 2.25”, it’s sufficient for the large majority of cases. However, extensions to Norma posts are available that would give this camera virtually unlimited rise.

As I understand it, one problem with Sinar F 8x10 systems, is that rise is limited, even when combined with F series front standards that have extended posts. Combining an F 8x10 rear standard with a Norma front standard equipped with the above described extensions would solve that problem.

I can’t see any advantage matching a Norma rear standard with an F series front standard. I also don't see the short, Norma clamp working well with F series rear standards that have extended posts.

Sinar F and Sinar Norma 4x5’s are nice cameras. But, I think I prefer this hybrid camera to either of the other two.

[neil poulsen]

Additional Photos

[Jerry Bodine]

Neil, I'm just curious. It looks like the front standard's attachment for the hex rod is incomplete, lacking the little aluminum plate (the one with the slight bend) is missing - or is there another method used on your camera?

[neil poulsen]

Neil, I'm just curious. It looks like the front standard's attachment for the hex rod is incomplete, lacking the little aluminum plate (the one with the slight bend) is missing - or is there another method used on your camera?

That's correct. I have both parts needed on another camera, but I can't figure out how to remove them from that camera. I can remove the knob, but not the little plate that holds the rod. It's locked in place by a flanged piece. I've tried to unscrew this "flanged" piece, but it won't budge. I may need to file off the flange to get the plate.

As for a compendium lenshood, I plan to use the following:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?130361-Compendium-Bellows-Lenshood-for-Sinar-Norma-Cameras

As for filters, I can either attach them via the filter threads on the lens, or use a Lee device that I have to hold alternative filters.

[Greg]

On the same topic of Hybrid Sinar cameras, here's mine. 151363

front to back:
28mm P C Nikkor
Nikon female mount epoxied to a Sinar Lens Board
Sinar Copal shutter
Stripped frame off a Sinar F, tripod mount added on bottom
4x5 Sinar Norma film holder with GG and fresnel
CAMBO reflex finder easily adapted to the Sinar back

Slight light leak from the side of the Sinar shutter that the cocking lever and shutter open levers are on. Probably always there but when the Sinar shutter is normally used, the leaks are absorbed by the inside of the front of the bellows and never reach the film plane. Now just drape this side of the shutter with a black cloth which essentially eliminates the light leak.

Shutter's max speed of 1/60 not fast enough for shooting in full sunlight so have to use ND filters.

Project worked out so well that am now adapting a 90mm f/14 Berthiot Paris Perigraphic No 2 Serie VI lens to be used with my Chamonix 11x14 view. Same round image effect but centered on 11x14" film which will allow me to make 11x11" contact prints. Hopefully possible with a very recessed lens board and adapter to place the front standard a lot closer to the GG.

[neil poulsen]

Neat. How does one focus a Sinar Handy? I've never had one to look at.

[rdenney]

Neat. How does one focus a Sinar Handy? I've never had one to look at. late response triggered by another thread: the Handy uses focusing mounts for each lens.

Rick "who didn't recall that the F2 had focus lock--must study" Denney

[neil poulsen]

RECENTLY UPDATED SINAR NORMA/F HYBRID:

I thought I would update this thread with the most recent version of my hybrid, Sinar Norma/F camera.

As to what’s different, I recently placed the winning (minimum) $40 bid for a Sinar F, 4x5 rear, standard that Sinar designed to support extra weight. This special purpose standard is capable of rise. But to make it stronger, it's not capable of rear swings, tilts, nor shifts. For a number of reasons, this back is an ideal match for a Sinar Norma, front standard.

> As described earlier in this thread, when combined with a regular F rear standard, it was necessary to raise the front Norma standard by almost an inch to align the two in height.

But raising this rear standard to it’s first détente (about ¼” high) perfectly aligns it to the height of the Norma front standard when at its lowest elevation. This increases maximum rise of the hybrid camera by an inch, to 3¼”. For 4x5 film, this is plenty.

> Since the special purpose rear standard is rigid with respect to swing, tilt, and shift, this most recent hybrid is more precise than either an all Norma, or an all Sinar F camera.

> Given the design of the front Norma standard, this special purpose F rear standard has the single rear adjustment that one must indeed have for a functioning camera. That of course is rise, in order to effect "front" fall.

> Due to its simpler construction, the special purpose rear standard weighs 13.6 oz less than a Norma rear standard, and 4.7 oz less than a regular F rear standard. So, it offers a weight, as well as a precision, advantage over the other combinations. Note that the configuration shown in the 1st photo (w/out lens; w/clamp, lensboard & cap) weighs 7 lbs 5oz. That shown in the 3rd photo weighs 6 lbs 13 oz.

> The minimum extension with a flat lensboard mounted on the Sinar Norma front standard, when combined with a regular Sinar F rear standard, is 46mm. (See first post.) As a negative, when combined with the special purpose Sinar F rear standard, the minimum extension increases to 60mm. None the less, this is still sufficient for use with a 58mm XL lens, and with any recessed lensboard, it’s sufficient for use with a 47mm XL lens.

> I’ll add one more observation about any of these Sinar Norma/F hybrids: they can pack well. I’ve always used Sinar F/Norma cameras with the 12” base rail that can be extended in either direction. But as the third photo demonstrates, a Sinar Norma/F hybrid loads quite comfortably onto a compact, 6” extension, even with the clamp! The resulting package takes a minimum of room in a backpack, and setup only requires loading the package onto a quick-release tripod head and adding whatever extension(s) is(are) needed. (No muss, no fuss.) Note that, it’s possible to swivel the clamp out of the way to reduce overall length, which becomes 12”.

If you’re familiar with Sinar rails, you know that those red knobs on the end easily turn, and this could make it difficult to add rails. But as a “base” rail for my hybrid camera, I used a spacer, washer, and nut on this particular rail’s (see 3rd photo) opposite end to prevent this from occurring. (Believe me, this red knob won’t budge.) Problem solved.

In summary, combining a Sinar front Norma standard with the special purpose F rear standard, results in a camera that is certainly capable, and I think even elegant. It’s relatively simple, but no simpler than needed.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the special purpose F rear standard I used above is rare. I know that I’ve not seen one previously. (Anyone?) Hence, this particular hybrid camera may be an oddity; but, it’s one that I look forward to using.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Hey Neil,

Very cool! I think you have it right. The only thing I would say, is that when I was doing commercial architectural photography, I have managed to break F standards. Also they would "flex" a bit (sometimes) which turned me off to them. But that could have been the way I was using them, I don't completely remember.

I do remember seeing in photos by Annie Leibovitz that Richard Avedon had an 8x10 Norma rear standard with an F front standard. I could never figure the point of that configuration. I always thought that is what he used, because that is what he had around. But then, he could afford to use whatever he wanted?

In 30+ years I have never been able to break a Norma standard. :)

[neil poulsen]

Daniel,

Thanks for the warning. I plan to be careful. I usually loosen adjustments, when I pack a camera, and that's not possible with this combination.

Using a front, F standard in place of a Norma is kind of a puzzler. But, there's something I like about the design of F rear standards. Plus this rear standard, being rigid, removes a source of variability when aligning the camera.

Out of curiosity, have you run across this type of standard previously?

[B.S.Kumar]

I seem to remember that cameras with this type of rear standard were advertised as the 'S' model. At that time, I was copying paintings for artists and was trying to find one. I think the ads were in the Photo-Technik magazine, published in Germany. I don't have those magazines any more, so I can't check.

Kumar

[Daniel Unkefer]

Out of curiosity, have you run across this type of standard previously?

No I haven't, I do believe it is the "S". They can't have sold many of those. No swings or tilts (probably will make it harder to break!).

If it works well for you then all is good. :)

[rdenney]

I've never seen the rigid rear standard.

As to breakage and flexing, that problem went away for me when I started using more flexible bellows. In particular, the Wide Angle Bellows 2 puts nearly zero stress on the standards, even short lenses used with fairly severe movements. It has a double pleat of vary soft and supple leather, and will extend enough for a 210mm lens.

I've had to deal with worn out and improperly repaired F standards bought from others, but so far I've not had breakage myself (knocking on wood). The main thing is keep those detent balls clean and moving freely to prevent them digging grooves in the risers. But the Norma parts are certainly more beautifully and precisely made.

Rick "who has thought about building an ultrawide on a 6" rail" Denney

[neil poulsen]

I've never seen the rigid rear standard.

As to breakage and flexing, that problem went away for me when I started using more flexible bellows. In particular, the Wide Angle Bellows 2 puts nearly zero stress on the standards, even short lenses used with fairly severe movements. It has a double pleat of vary soft and supple leather, and will extend enough for a 210mm lens.

I've had to deal with worn out and improperly repaired F standards bought from others, but so far I've not had breakage myself (knocking on wood). The main thing is keep those detent balls clean and moving freely to prevent them digging grooves in the risers. But the Norma parts are certainly more beautifully and precisely made.

Rick "who has thought about building an ultrawide on a 6" rail" Denney

Rick,

Thanks for the heads-up on the detente balls. I'll bear that in mind. In fact, I spoke with the seller yesterday, and this standard is right off the shelf and likely has never been used. So, off to a good start.

I picked up a double-pleated bellows, and they're much nicer to use.

As for the standard bellows, I don't see the need to have so much material. Jeepers, talk about elephant ears!

[neil poulsen]

This is the latest “hybrid”, which combines a more recent Sinar P 8x10 back with a Norma front standard. If you know anything about Sinar P cameras, you’ll notice that the rear standard bearer (intended for 8x10 cameras) has only focus control. Intended for copy work, it has no swings, tilts, rise/fall, nor shift. I’ve not previously seen one of these standards, nor do I expect to see another.

I prefer this camera to my now sold Deardorff V8. Being a rail camera, it's very solid. (For my tastes, the V8 was a little too prone to vibrations.) The collapsed camera (2rd photo) weighs less than 11.5 lbs, which is the lightest of the three cameras. There’s also a certain economy that I like to not having rear movements, which I rarely use. Any reasonable configuration that might involve rear movements can be duplicated using the front standard alone. This camera will also be convenient to backpack; the front and rear standards and clamp easily fit onto a Sinar 6” extension (2nd photo). The Norma 8x10 requires at least an 8” rail that’s described in another thread.

Given the rarity of this rear P 8x10 standard, this post is offered more out of interest than for other reasons. However, this post does illustrate an advantage of combining a Sinar 8x10 conversion with a Norma front standard. From the 3rd photo, the Norma front standard makes it possible to achieve unlimited rise. I recently purchased two, 150mm riser extensions from GlennView.com photography (4th photo) that can be screwed into the top of a Sinar Norma standard. This of course extends the rise that can be achieved. Due to their designs, convenient rise can be limited on a Sinar P 8x10, or on a Sinar 8x10 with a Sinar F front standard.