Radar 12" F6.3?

[koh303]

Just saw a Radar Anastigmat 12" F6.3.
It is mounted in an Ilex #5.
Huge lens. It appears that at some point the front rim of the lens which carries the name and SN, had the original Max F stop marking rooted out, and instead the "6.3" stamped in the cavity.

Google does not know about a Radar 12" 6.3 - can anyone point to a camera centric page that covers this? Or perhaps otherwise direct to info?

Is it possible this is in fact a 4.5? If so, what would be a simple way to test this?

[djdister]

Just saw a Radar Anastigmat 12" F6.3.
It is mounted in an Ilex #5.
Huge lens. It appears that at some point the front rim of the lens which carries the name and SN, had the original Max F stop marking rooted out, and instead the "6.3" stamped in the cavity.

Google does not know about a Radar 12" 6.3 - can anyone point to a camera centric page that covers this? Or perhaps otherwise direct to info?

Is it possible this is in fact a 4.5? If so, what would be a simple way to test this?

151201

[koh303]

Dont see any reference to 6.3 on that page...

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

An image would help, but usually a 12" Tessar-type lens fit in a #5 shutter is a f4.5 lens (eg; The 12" f4.5 Ektar). A 12" lens fit in a #4 shutter is a f6.3 lens (eg; The 12" f6.3 Commercial Ektar). A #5 shutter marked at f6.3 is possibly from a 14" lens (eg; The 14" f6.3 Ektar). So, perhaps someone put a 12" f4.5 Radar into a shutter for a 14" f6.3 lens?

[Ari]

Gundlach Radar? Mine was a 12" f4.5.

[koh303]

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zJYAAOSwq5pXP2cf/s-l1600.jpg

[Mark Sawyer]

Measure the aperture through the front element. An f/4.5 will be around 2.7 inches, an f/6.3 around 1.9 inches.

[koh303]

It is 2.7".
This brings up the question of why the lens is so marked - is it because of the available shutter markings? It seems that i would be the same trouble to re etch the lens as it would the shutter...???

[Mark Sawyer]

I'd guess that Jason is right, that shutter was originally for another f/6.3 lens, likely a 14-inch like a Commercial Ektar or Caltar. But re-labeling an f/4.5 lens as an f/6.3 doesn't make it one. Used with those markings, all the exposures would be one stop over. (Personally, I would have re-engraved it as a Dallmeyer 4B...)

[BarryS]

Weird. An Ilex #5 has a 63mm maximum iris. Other 12" Radars mounted in #5 Alphax shutters have f/4.5 apertures and the Alphax has a 58mm maximum iris. Your should be f/4.5 despite the wonky marking.

[Ari]

Was probably etched on a Monday morning, that's all.

[Mark Sawyer]

Weird. An Ilex #5 has a 63mm maximum iris...

Remember that the front cell can magnify that aperture to a significantly larger size.

[BarryS]

Remember that the front cell can magnify that aperture to a significantly larger size.

Right--my point is that if the Alphax doesn't reduce the maximum aperture, the Ilex shouldn't.

[Jim Galli]

Give front and back a penlight test. Usually the f6.3 was entry level and was a dialyt type. 4 glass in 4 groups, which is deadly for flare if uncoated. If you get 4 brights, front and back that's what it is. Wolly did the same thing. It was a cheap lens to get the entry participant up and going. The 4.5 Radar barely fits in a 5 Betax. I think the Ilex was a bit smaller yet. Sure it isn't an Ilex 4? 12" 6.3 was common in Betax 4.

[koh303]

Give front and back a penlight test. Usually the f6.3 was entry level and was a dialyt type. 4 glass in 4 groups, which is deadly for flare if uncoated. If you get 4 brights, front and back that's what it is. Wolly did the same thing. It was a cheap lens to get the entry participant up and going. The 4.5 Radar barely fits in a 5 Betax. I think the Ilex was a bit smaller yet. Sure it isn't an Ilex 4? 12" 6.3 was common in Betax 4.

Now that you ask if i am sure if it is in a #5 shutter, i am not so sure any more. Wait let me see, if it says universal no. 5 shutter its a #4 right?
Jim, you solved the mystery.

[Jim Galli]

Now that you ask if i am sure if it is in a #5 shutter, i am not so sure any more. Wait let me see, if it says universal no. 5 shutter its a #4 right?
Jim, you solved the mystery.

I deeply regret that I honestly tried to help. Trust me, it won't happen again. Ahhh, the ignore list.

[mdarnton]

Quite often on Ebay I see lenses that have been transplanted to a different shutter without changing the f-scale. If you have a barrel lens and a shutter that fits, this is an obvious thing to do. Then making the scale is left to the person who does the graft, and I guess a lot of people don't bother. This happens often enough that I always check the scale on lenses I am thinking of buying to make sure the shutter is scaled right. It's very common on old American lenses and I've seen a few 90mm W/A Raptars with f/4.5 scales, and I have a black 15" tele Raptar in a shutter with an f6.3 scale--it was so cheap I couldn't ignore it :-)

You can often recognize these jobs from a barrel that doesn't match the shutter. Just recently there was an obvious transplant on Ebay. Someone grafted a 14-3/4" Ilex Paragon from a barrel into a #5 shutter. The barrel is black from a barrel lens, the shutter chrome. Then he called it a 14-3/4" Caltar, which it obviously wasn't and didn't look like at all. It's in the "sold" listings, and I wonder if the buyer realizes what he got.

Anyway, making a correct scale isn't that hard.

[koh303]

Quite often on Ebay I see lenses that have been transplanted to a different shutter without changing the f-scale. If you have a barrel lens and a shutter that fits, this is an obvious thing to do. Then making the scale is left to the person who does the graft, and I guess a lot of people don't bother. This happens often enough that I always check the scale on lenses I am thinking of buying to make sure the shutter is scaled right. It's very common on old American lenses and I've seen a few 90mm W/A Raptars with f/4.5 scales, and I have a black 15" tele Raptar in a shutter with an f6.3 scale--it was so cheap I couldn't ignore it :-)

You can often recognize these jobs from a barrel that doesn't match the shutter. Just recently there was an obvious transplant on Ebay. Someone grafted a 14-3/4" Ilex Paragon from a barrel into a #5 shutter. The barrel is black from a barrel lens, the shutter chrome. Then he called it a 14-3/4" Caltar, which it obviously wasn't and didn't look like at all. It's in the "sold" listings, and I wonder if the buyer realizes what he got.

Anyway, making a correct scale isn't that hard.

Please explain how this is related in any to the lens in question?
The lens and shutter both marked for f6.3.

[Jim Galli]

Instead of asking ignorant questions, why not make a rough measurement of the entrance pupil with something like, oh, a ruler, and divide that number into the presumed focal length, or perhaps you could measure that at infinity too but that might be a challenge for you, and then you could answer your own dopey questions and stop being rude to people in your tone.

[koh303]

It is 2.7".
This brings up the question of why the lens is so marked - is it because of the available shutter markings? It seems that i would be the same trouble to re etch the lens as it would the shutter...???

actually, it is 2.5" or 64mm.
305/64=4.7....

[Corran]

It's clearly an amateur change to the original marked aperture on the lens cell, likely from an ignorant person who either replaced the shutter or found it as-is and decided to "fix" the mismatching numbers, but didn't understand how apertures and f/stop scales work. Probably saw that when set to f/6.3 it was wide-open and so changed the f/4.5 marking to that.

Post #3 surmised the shutter was from a 14" f/6.3. I don't know what else there is to add. It's obviously not a factory change, at least from what I can see on your blurry photo.

[koh303]

The shutter is actually marked correctly for this lens - at F6.3, the aperture is closed and measures about right for that setting, and have enough travel left, and opening to be set at F4.5, so the above theory is not relevant for this case.

The aperture and shutter seem to be marked appropriately for each other in every respect...

My only guess is that this lens was marketed at a point in time when the F4.5 setting was no longer a viable or usable setting due to sharpness requirements.

[Corran]

This is the first time you've explicitly stated that the marked f/6.3 aperture is stopped down and not at maximum.

Sounds like you have all the answers.

[domaz]

My only guess is that this lens was marketed at a point in time when the F4.5 setting was no longer a viable or usable setting due to sharpness requirements.

It seems like by making statements like this you are trying to make this lens somehow historically significant, when there's really no evidence it's anything other than someone re-labelling the lens incorrectly, out of confusion or for some other unknown reason. If we found two of these lenses with the aperture changed in a similar way, maybe you could have a case.

[koh303]

It seems like by making statements like this you are trying to make this lens somehow historically significant, when there's really no evidence it's anything other than someone re-labelling the lens incorrectly, out of confusion or for some other unknown reason. If we found two of these lenses with the aperture changed in a similar way, maybe you could have a case.

**Guess** not statement. The lens is marked correctly as is the shutter.

[Jim Galli]

As long as we're all throwing our **guesses** into the pool of ignorance to see what floats to the top, I'll join in. My guess is that since Kodak was selling the h&ll out of their Commercial Ektar's Gundlach figured they'd jump on the band wagon.

[choiliefan]

Resurrecting an old thread I just bought an 8X10 6.3 Radar lens not received yet. Hopefully this isn't a re-sell by the OP but a second example of this obvious rarity. :)

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[cowanw]

A quick scan of google images shows 3 images of differing serial numbers, yours, and RE 0100 and RE 0056.

[choiliefan]

The OP's serial number is 209850.