Please help identify strange marks on processed sheet film

[Stephen Thomason]

I've experimented with a Yankee developing tank and have very strange marks on the developed film. I have read the posts about the difficulty achieving uniform development, so I adopted the slide movements as prescribed by the manufacturer plus a couple of washing machine type twists. Six sheets were developed with sheets placed in every other groove so as to allow plenty of room for the chemicals to slosh around (reasonably gently).

All of the negatives have the marks shown below. (replenished XTOL developer, by the way). EXCEPT for the sheet that I earlier processed in Rodinal at 1+100 using 60 minute stand with one lift and replace at 30 minutes. It came out just fine. There was no agitation, just the lift and replace.

Before committing six sheets, I DID process another sheet all by itself, using the same techniques to be used with the six sheets, and did not notice at that time anything unusual. HOWEVER, after the six sheet affair, I examined the solitary sheet more closely, and it DOES have those same marks, but they are only barely visible, as compared to the glaring presence of the six sheet batch. I don't think they will be an issue in printing due to the subject matter, but I do not want to continue with the Yankee tank unless I can avoid those marks.

I don't believe it is reticulation since the solutions were at the same temperature, and I have never seen this pattern of reticulation.

The film is a mixture of Ilford conventional emulsion and delta emulsion (Delta 100 and HP5+). Times were Ilford times adjusted for replenished XTOL and intermittent agitation.

Thinking that it might be the agitation, I developed 9 sheets in my JOBO rotary tube that has the two 12 sheet reels. Again loading the film in every other groove. The same mixture of film does NOT those marks that the film processed in the Yankee tank have. The negatives look normal. Development time was adjusted for rotary processing, still considering replenished XTOL adjustment.

The marks are on the NON-emulsion side. All the film was sprayed with Ilford rinse aid in the same manner, coming from both the Yankee tank and the JOBO tube. The marks almost look like scratches, but are not visible unless you get the angle of the light just right.

Although only a portion of the film is shown in the picture, the entire negative has those marks. They are all in the same direction (the direction of the agitation, lengthwise) but they are not completely straight nor do they necessarily continue from end to end - some start, disappear for a little space, and then start again. It almost looks like grit was sloshing back and forth, but since the emulsion side is softer, why are the marks/scratches/wavy lines on the base side?? The film was loaded with the emulsion side curved convexly. (Been a while since Fluid Mechanics, but theoretically I suppose the fluid could have different velocities across the film surface, making it even more puzzling why the non-emulsion side carries the marks).

The marks are easily shown in the upper left of the pic. Anybody got any ideas what caused this and how to prevent it, other than, of course, use the Yankee for stand development only, which seems like a jolly good idea!

150494

[koraks]

Nit sure what the cause is, but they do look like scratches to me. I don't think it has much to do with fluid dynamics; this seems more like the sheets were rubbed along a coarse surface or ridge, perhaps when taking the film pit of the tank or during later processing.

[IanG]

Definitely scratches, check your dark-slides carefully.

Ian

[Stephen Thomason]

koraks: I also thought initially that they were scratches, but they are wavy, not straight. The way the Yankee tank is constructed, the sheets were removed carefully after processing in daylight so I am confident they didn't get scratched while unloading. The guide was used loading the sheets, but there are openings where the film would not touch the edges of the guide while the film is being loaded, but nonetheless contain the same marks.

IanG: I also thought the marks could come from the darkslides, but because the sheets processed in the JOBO didn't have the marks and came from essentially the same brand and condition of film holder, I eliminated the film holders/dark slides from consideration.

[koraks]

Maybe do a dry run of your whole process, from loading film in the holders to drying it after development, and carefully observe any opportunity where it can be scratched?

[Doremus Scudder]

Sure looks like scratches to me. If they are, you should be able to feel them with a fingertip or nail, or at least see the damage under high magnification (try a 10x loupe or use a good enlarging magnifier). If they aren't scratches (which you really need to definitively determine) then you may be looking at physical damage such as crimping or stressing of some kind. Keep in mind that many films have an gelatin coating on the "non-emulsion" side. With bending, squeezing or crimping, this can also crack or splinter (just a wild guess here).

Since you've basically isolated the cause to something in connection with your Yankee processor, I'd take koraks' suggestion and sit down with it and a few sheets of scrap film (or trashed negatives) and go through your entire routine looking for where in the process your film can get damaged (or contaminated or...)

It's highly unlikely that the agitation could cause anything like what you have.

Good luck,

Doremus

[alexmuir]

When I'm loading and unloading 4x5 darkslides, which are either Fidelity Elite or Toyo, I get concerned about the film coming into contact with the hinged flap at the bottom. Although it bends back, it has a tendency to contact the back of the film if you don't keep it out of the way. It's just a thought, but contact with that part during loading, or unloading could cause scratches on the film base along the length of the sheet.
Alex

[koraks]

Alex, that thought crossed my mind as well. Particularly towards the end of the sheet this tends to happen, I find. It's also consistent with the scratch pattern shown here...

[Gary Beasley]

Did you use a squeegee of any type on the film? It looks a bit like drying marks from wetting agent trails after squeegeeing. That can be avoided with an alcohol based final dip hung without wiping from the corner. The solution prevents any droplets from forming and making mineral spots. There used to be several commercial products for this job like that, the one I remember was a clear pink liquid though I can't remember the name of it.

[Duolab123]

koraks: I also thought initially that they were scratches, but they are wavy, not straight. The way the Yankee tank is constructed, the sheets were removed carefully after processing in daylight so I am confident they didn't get scratched while unloading. The guide was used loading the sheets, but there are openings where the film would not touch the edges of the guide while the film is being loaded, but nonetheless contain the same marks.

IanG: I also thought the marks could come from the darkslides, but because the sheets processed in the JOBO didn't have the marks and came from essentially the same brand and condition of film holder, I eliminated the film holders/dark slides from consideration.

Sounds like you are pretty certain that using the Jobo reels (are you using the 2509n, 6 sheet capacity reels or an expert tank?) you are not having a problem with Jobo equipment? I would make sure that you are absolutely sure before going much further.

I've never seen marks quite like that from agitation. I sure have scratched the daylights out of film with silly squeegees before I came to my senses.
The comment on going back over step by step makes darn good sense to me. You don't want to blame your tank and have a problem with that one in a million shot later on.
Good luck, Mike

[Duolab123]

When I'm loading and unloading 4x5 darkslides, which are either Fidelity Elite or Toyo, I get concerned about the film coming into contact with the hinged flap at the bottom. Although it bends back, it has a tendency to contact the back of the film if you don't keep it out of the way. It's just a thought, but contact with that part during loading, or unloading could cause scratches on the film base along the length of the sheet.
Alex

I sure agree with this, I always try to remember to hold the flap down with my little finger, always concerns me.

[Stephen Thomason]

Duolab123: I have the original 2509 reels.

I ran across a 2014 post on APUG where the OP has the exact same marks as my film. Here is the title of the post: "Random horizontal scratches/lines on negative"

The OP is using the same Yankee tank as am I. The thread ends in late 2015 with no resolution. Bizarre.

I don't believe the OP is still a member of that forum, since his post name does not link to a profile at this time.

A lot of discussion was about the possibility of reticulation. My wash water from the tap is 21 C and the developer temp was 23 C. I do not believe reticulation is the culprit, especially since the marks are on the base side of the film.

[koraks]

I agree it looks nothing like reticulation. I'd definitely look in the direction of mechanical scratching instead. I don't see how a chemical interaction would cause this damage pattern.

[Stephen Thomason]

koraks: I developed two sheets of HP5+ this afternoon - one in the Yankee tank and one in a Paterson System 4 tank. For the Yankee tank I adopted a very mild agitation scheme - for the Paterson I developed as normal with inversion. I filtered all chemicals before use (Replenished XTOL, reused Ilford Indicator Stop, and reused two bath Eco-Pro Neutral fixer). The developer and fixer were tested successfully for activity, and look clear as a bell (not including the pretty yellow and purple colors).

Results: BOTH sheets exhibited the strange markings. Development was spot-on and the image looks fine.

Conclusion: Either damaged film from the factory (maybe in coating the base) or the sheets are picking up some mechanical scratching somehow. All of my film holders are very well used, and I have not had a problem with them before. HOWEVER, I do have a LOT of film holders I have accumulated and I am sure some in this batch have not been used previously by myself. I of course inspected them prior to use and did not find anything out of the ordinary, but I will check them very carefully now.

With the marks on the film being "wavy," I have a hard time understanding how the surface of the film holder could scratch the base of the film in such a way.

How do people smooth out their film holder trays? 1000 or 2000 grit wet sand paper?? Then rinse the holders in running water? Could you ever expect to get rid of ALL the resulting microscopic grit?? How do you do it?

[Duolab123]

koraks: I developed two sheets of HP5+ this afternoon - one in the Yankee tank and one in a Paterson System 4 tank. For the Yankee tank I adopted a very mild agitation scheme - for the Paterson I developed as normal with inversion. I filtered all chemicals before use (Replenished XTOL, reused Ilford Indicator Stop, and reused two bath Eco-Pro Neutral fixer). The developer and fixer were tested successfully for activity, and look clear as a bell (not including the pretty yellow and purple colors).

Results: BOTH sheets exhibited the strange markings. Development was spot-on and the image looks fine.

Conclusion: Either damaged film from the factory (maybe in coating the base) or the sheets are picking up some mechanical scratching somehow. All of my film holders are very well used, and I have not had a problem with them before. HOWEVER, I do have a LOT of film holders I have accumulated and I am sure some in this batch have not been used previously by myself. I of course inspected them prior to use and did not find anything out of the ordinary, but I will check them very carefully now.

With the marks on the film being "wavy," I have a hard time understanding how the surface of the film holder could scratch the base of the film in such a way.

How do people smooth out their film holder trays? 1000 or 2000 grit wet sand paper?? Then rinse the holders in running water? Could you ever expect to get rid of ALL the resulting microscopic grit?? How do you do it?

Can you super impose the marks from one sheet to the next? I ask as it might have something to do with cutting and packaging of film.? It looks as if these are lighter than base fog , it very well be a problem with the film. Only once in my life did I have a factory problem with emulsion goods. It was of all things a problem with a 500 sheet box of 4x5 kodak polycontrast rc paper. It was 20 years back I got a nice letter and replacement from EK.

[Stephen Thomason]

Duolab123: Yes, they are much lighter than base fog. I think I will fix -oops --- all the sheets from the 25 sheet box of HP5 + are loaded in holders. HOWEVER, I DO have an unopened box of Delta 100 and I just checked some negatives and I have some Delta 100 negatives with the same marks.

Some of those marks will veer off at a 30 degree angle at a place on the negative where the film holder would prevent such a movement.

I don't think I would have even noticed them if I had an image occupying the entire negative, rather than the large space of clear negative (which was done of purpose).

I do believe at this point that it has something to do with the cutting and the packaging of the film. I really don't believe they will affect the printed image, but I will find out in a few days.

When I open the new box of Delta100, I will go ahead and directly fix a sheet and see if those marks are present - then the mystery will be solved. If I get marks following insertion in film holders, I'll certainly know the culprit, but I have looked at my film holders and slides and don't see anything that would scratch film.

Would it be a good idea to use Johnson Paste Wax (the hard stuff that is REALLY hard to polish off) on the slides and the floor of the holder? I don't see how it could hurt. I'm may get some of the EndDust dry cloths and antistatic spray cleaner for electronics and use it on the film holders.

[AtlantaTerry]

Reticulation would not look like that, it is microscopic in nature.

[Rael]

I've been trying to track down the cause of some very similar lines on the last box of Fp4 I started. At first I thought it was from the drying process, like something coming from my water softener since I'm rinsing in tap water. I also didn't think it was scratches because they aren't straight. Also on the non-emulsion side. I'm curious as to what your test with a sheet right out of the box reveals.

[Stephen Thomason]

SOLVED, I think.

I have been shooting some of the new Bergger 4x5 and processing it along with the remaining HP5, in the same tanks at the same time. Same marks on the HP5, no marks on the Bergger.

It's my conclusion that the HP5 acquired those marks in the coating process. They don't look like scratches so I don't think they could have acquired them in cutting or packaging. Probably just something in that particular batch - I will certainly be buying more HP5.

By the way, the Bergger looks great, and I'll be buying more of it as well.

[gary892]

I have been processing sheet film for over 30 years. The film I used was Agfa Pan 100.
When Agfa went out of production I searched for a replacement and started using Ilford's Delta 100.

My process has always been a 30 second pre-soak and then into the developer and on down the line. I have never experienced any issues with Agfa, BUT, with Ilford's Delta 100 I saw the same type of lines you are seeing on the backing side (non emulsion side) of the film.

I did several tests and found, for my workflow, that eliminating the pre-soak resolved the issue. Now my film comes out free of any lines or scratches.

Bottom line, if you are using a pre-soak, try processing without it and see if the lines go away. If you are not using a pre-soak then obviously my information is of no help.

Let me know as I too am interested in this.

Gary

[Stephen Thomason]

Gary, I do indeed use a presoak. How interesting. I can't imagine at this time how that would result in those lines, but I will process my next batch WITHOUT a presoak and compare.

One reason I presoak, even though I know Ilford does not recommend it, is to rinse off most of the anti-halation coating. I use replenished XTOL a lot, and didn't want the contamination from the dye. I don't know if it would adversely affect anything, and I could always filter the developer before re-bottling.

I'll update the thread after my next developing session in a few days.