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View Full Version : Goerz Red Dot Artar 10 3/4 - Lensboard size/shutter?



senderoaburrido
20-Apr-2016, 21:47
So I have a the lens mentioned in the title. Bought it as a barrel lens, knowing full well it had no shutter. Now that it has arrived, I see that it has no flange on the back and does not fit copal 0,1 or 3. It looks to be slightly larger than Copal 1, by maybe 1 or 2mm. Does anyone know what size flange it needs, and where I can find one? I cannot afford any shutter that it might fit in, most likely. I know that SK Grimes offers to unite it with a Copal 1, but that's hundreds more that I just don't have.

Ken Lee
21-Apr-2016, 05:30
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/alphaxartar.jpg

I had S.K. Grimes make an adapter to front-mount my 10 3/4 Artar into an Alphax # 4 shutter.

Perhaps they keep records of their work: you could ask them.

John Kasaian
21-Apr-2016, 06:47
You could probably sandwich the lens board between the Artar and a toilet tank gasket of a slightly smaller size than the barrel. Not ideal but it holds on to the threaded portions tightly.

senderoaburrido
21-Apr-2016, 09:09
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/alphaxartar.jpg

I had S.K. Grimes make an adapter to front-mount my 10 3/4 Artar into an Alphax # 4 shutter.

Perhaps they keep records of their work: you could ask them.

Yeah, I saw your site and had been wondering whether that was natural or not. They also offer to set it in a copal 3 front mount. Buying a shutter for me is out of the question right now. I just bought a 617 back, and do not have the funds to buy a shutter. I picked up this lens because I had read it was good and sharp, and it's much longer than my other lenses. I had figured it would be much more simple to mount it to a lensboard than this. Is it even a good idea to buy shutters as old as alphax's? I'd fear their springs would lack tensions and the times would be way off.

adelorenzo
21-Apr-2016, 09:22
Mine was mounted in a Copal 1. I bought it that way, the seller said it was done by Nippon camera in New York.

Luis-F-S
21-Apr-2016, 09:29
There are some cheap Copal 1 shutters in another thread, and then you pay SKG or someone else to mount it onto your shutter when you have the funds. Other than that, you use it in the barrel setting. L

Ken Lee
21-Apr-2016, 11:46
One advantage of front-mounting into a shutter like the Alphax is that the Alphax has no aperture of its own: the lens kept in-barrel and you use its own aperture which is virtually round at all settings.

Tin Can
21-Apr-2016, 12:16
I see you are new here. You ask this in the Darkroom section. We all are assuming the lens is not for your darkroom enlarger.

You could be more forthcoming on your exact application. Camera and lens boards used would be a start.

Your location is also important, as there maybe a member or old camera store near you, who has 100's if not 1000's of the part you want.

Since you appear to be on a tight budget, shooting perhaps 6x17, was this lens very expensive? If not cruder solutions are possible and used by many.

Hose clamp can work, even thin wire wound tightly in the barrel lens threading, hot melt glue can also work.

There are tapes that can easily hold almost anything anywhere.

But 6x17 means roll film and most are 100 to 400 ASA A shutter of some kind helps, but we don't know enough to recommend a cheap way to do what you want.

Pictures and city are always welcome.

senderoaburrido
21-Apr-2016, 12:41
I see you are new here. You ask this in the Darkroom section. We all are assuming the lens is not for your darkroom enlarger.

You could be more forthcoming on your exact application. Camera and lens boards used would be a start.

Your location is also important, as there maybe a member or old camera store near you, who has 100's if not 1000's of the part you want.

Since you appear to be on a tight budget, shooting perhaps 6x17, was this lens very expensive? If not cruder solutions are possible and used by many.

Hose clamp can work, even thin wire wound tightly in the barrel lens threading, hot melt glue can also work.

There are tapes that can easily hold almost anything anywhere.

But 6x17 means roll film and most are 100 to 400 ASA A shutter of some kind helps, but we don't know enough to recommend a cheap way to do what you want.

Pictures and city are always welcome.

My mistake! I could have sworn I clicked "gear" and not "darkroom". If mods could correct this, it would be much appreciated. I did not mean to do that at all, but I was zonked out of my mind early morning on a double dose of benadryl.

I got this lens pretty cheap, for 100$ CDN. Seemed like an okay deal to me.

Primarily I shoot 4x5. I don't think the 6x17 back can use this lens. If I add the blackouts to make it 6x12, it might work.

I'm in Montreal. Thinking of going to a toolshare place or something to lathe a cheap wooden board. The flange is the primary concern. I need a flange to hold it in, because gluing a lens gives me the heebie jeebies.

SK Grimes says they charge about 200-300 US to mount the lens on a shutter, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. I wouldn't mind a cheaper solution involving a rear mounting flange-copal 3 or something. Granted, that requires me getting a copal 3 shutter. I do however, have a copal 1, fresh. I am concerned about whether the machining SK Grimes does would change the nature of the shutter, though. I wouldn't mind saving up to get the work done eventually if it meant the shutter remained unmodified, and the lens was modified to fit the shutter.

Luis-F-S
21-Apr-2016, 12:46
SK Grimes says they charge about 200-300 US to mount the lens on a shutter, and I'm not sure if it's worth it.

It's worth it if the lens is in good shape and you have a working shutter. Most of the mounts they've done for me have run between $300 & $400 by the time you engrave the aperture scales, but their work is excellent and well worth it. You could alternative look for a lens already in shutter and then sell the barrel version. L

senderoaburrido
21-Apr-2016, 12:54
It has one very faint cleaning mark that is nearly impossible to see on the front element. I couldn't even find it the first few times I looked. Otherwise, it's in excellent condition.

Oren Grad
21-Apr-2016, 12:59
My mistake! I could have sworn I clicked "gear" and not "darkroom". If mods could correct this, it would be much appreciated. I did not mean to do that at all, but I was zonked out of my mind early morning on a double dose of benadryl.

Moved. Please alert us (you can click on the "report post" icon at the bottom) when you need help - we're not able to catch everything that's buried in the discussion.

Thanks...

Ken Lee
21-Apr-2016, 13:24
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/alphaxtachihara.jpg

Yet another advantage of front-mounting a lens into an otherwise too-large shutter: a machinist can make adapters to accommodate other lenses.

This is an attractive alternative to the Sinar Copal Shutter because it can be used on almost any LF camera.

senderoaburrido
21-Apr-2016, 13:29
Front mounting means placing the lens in front of the shutter, as opposed to behind, right? I may have misunderstood and thought it was in reference to the lens as focal point, not shutter, where rear-mounting means mounting the lens by its rear to the front of the shutter.

Ken Lee
21-Apr-2016, 14:41
Front mounting means placing the lens in front of the shutter, as opposed to behind, right? I may have misunderstood and thought it was in reference to the lens as focal point, not shutter, where rear-mounting means mounting the lens by its rear to the front of the shutter.

Yes: front-mounting (http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/front-mount) means mounting the lens in front of the shutter.

Luis-F-S
21-Apr-2016, 16:50
Yes: front-mounting (http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/front-mount) means mounting the lens in front of the shutter.

Of course, you will need a much larger shutter so it won't vignette which will weigh more and cost more than if you mounted it in a Copal 1 shutter. So you see, even in photography, there is no free lunch. Looking for a shutter mounted lens and selling the one you have may be the most cost effective option if you don't want to go through the expense of having it mounted correctly. Of course, there's always the "sombrero" option.....L

Ken Lee
21-Apr-2016, 18:26
Front-mounting (http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/front-mount) is simply the creation of an adapter ring which receives the lens and screws into the shutter. If we front-mount a lens, we leave the lens intact and use the lens' original iris. Making an adapter ring is simple and affordable, especially for lenses like the Artar, APO Nikor and Ronar which are compact with modest angles of coverage. Any machinist can do it.

If we fully mount (http://www.skgrimes.com/lens-mounting/to-shutter) the lens in a Copal shutter, the process is more complicated and I presume more expensive. We have to divide the lens in two and secure the sections on either side of the shutter: this requires 2 adapters and very exact positioning. We discard the lens' iris and use the shutter's iris instead. We need to calibrate the aperture to the lens. You can see S.K. Grimes engraving new numbers for the shutter. Modern shutters have a comparatively low number of blades. This approach is probably best suited to lenses of wide coverage.

senderoaburrido
22-Apr-2016, 10:01
Although thankfully the glass is in great condition, that one faint cleaning mark aside, the front ring is bent at the very lip. I have no idea how the glass stayed pristine while the rim attained such a tremendous dent. I've double and triple checked for any other flaws. This issue makes me wonder if it's worth spending a large sum on mounting it in the shutter outright. I think yeah, I'll save up to front-mount it in a Copal 3.

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