Extending Rise on Sinar Norma Front Standards

[neil poulsen]

After this last weekend's swap meet, I now have a Sinar Norma camera. (Great camera for a great price.)

Looking at this camera in detail, I see that the front standard has a removable, threaded, black, cap on each of the two posts. Was there an extension made that would screw into the tops of the posts to increase the amount of rise?

If not, I suppose that one could find a machinist to fabricate custom extensions that would screw into the top of these posts.

[Struan Gray]

The red-anodised 'stabilisation' rods turn up occasionally. They screw into the top of the standard uprights once you've removed the black keeper. The thread and diameter of the rods are standard metric sizes, so replacements would be easy to make.

Not sure of the stabiilty, but the Norma manuals show it in use.

Much harder to find are the adjustable clamps. These also screw into the top of the standard, and then allow the red rods to be used as stiffening struts, linking the tops of the front and rear standards.

[Mark Sampson]

The Norma has a large amount of front rise built in. Combined with the rear fall, it's hard to imagine where you'd need all of it, or what lens would cover. But it's nice to know that there's a way to extend the standards, should the need arise. The designers did a lot of thinking when they designed that camera.

[Bob Salomon]

You might also look to see if the 3" long Linhof risers will also fit.

[jose angel]

I think I have seen anytime an image of a second Norma attached on top of this posts, over the very same standard, by using extension posts. Like an stereo camera mount but one directly over the other (maybe what Struan says).
Agree with Mark; many times I like to rise the lens, and never thought in larger posts.

[neil poulsen]

The Norma has a large amount of front rise built in. . .

This is the 8x10 version. So already, one needs to use quite a bit of the rise just to stay on axis.

I see that I can always tilt front and back equally forward and use the rail to bring the standards back to normal (vertical). But, it would be nice to avoid all of that.

Say, I wonder if "normal" has to do with origin of Norma's name? :confused:


The red-anodised 'stabilisation' rods turn up occasionally. . .

I've read about these, but not having seen them, didn't realize that they screw into the standards in that way.


You might also look to see if the 3" long Linhof risers will also fit.

I will do this. Thanks, Bob.

[Peter De Smidt]

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

[neil poulsen]

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

Thanks. In fact, he can make these "riser" extension rods to any size. I sent him an email.

[neil poulsen]

I think I have seen anytime an image of a second Norma attached on top of this posts, over the very same standard, by using extension posts. Like an stereo camera mount but one directly over the other (maybe what Struan says).
Agree with Mark; many times I like to rise the lens, and never thought in larger posts.

See the above link that Peter posted. He has a separate page that goes into greater detail.

See http://www.glennview.com/sinarTLR.htm

[jose angel]

Exactly, this is the image, thanks. I don`t remembered where I saw it.

[neil poulsen]

Thanks. In fact, he can make these "riser" extension rods to any size. I sent him an email.

Received a response. He has lengths up to 166mm available for $150. All things considered, I think that this is reasonable, given that they're custom made. I just need to give the length some consideration.

[Bob Salomon]

Received a response. He has lengths up to 166mm available for $150. All things considered, I think that this is reasonable, given that they're custom made. I just need to give the length some consideration.
Each or per pair?

[Struan Gray]

Some machine shops have minimum orders of about that amount, but if you have one that you're on good terms with a pair of rods should cost much less. The thread you can take from the black keeper (M4?, I forget), and the diameter of the rod is the same as the existing uprights.

[Jerry Bodine]

Each or per pair?

Per pair.

Neil - fyi, if you look closely at the vertical rods on the front standard, you'll see some grooves for the detents at different heights. The upper grooves are for 8x10 lenses to position the lens axis at the center of the format. The lower grooves are used for both 4x5 and 5x7 formats.

[Leonard Robertson]

Can anyone measure the thread for the top of the Norma uprights? I've been working on this for awhile today and I'm not finding a good answer. What threads down into my uprights for the full 17mm of threads is a 3/8 X 16tpi SAE. The outer thread diameter for that is very close to that of the black upright cap thread. Measuring the thread pitch of the cap with a metric pitch gauge it appears the pitch is 1.5mm, but a M10X1.5 bolt seems too large in diameter to thread into the upright. When threading the Norma cap into a M10X1.5 nut it is a much looser fit than threading it into a 3/8X16 SAE nut. I don't have a bolt M9x1.5 to try and it may not be a common size so I can buy one. So does anyone know the actual thread size?

Len

[Drew Wiley]

Then there's always that old trick of inclining the main rail (or bed with flatbed cameras) upward somewhat, then correcting both the front and rear standards back to vertical.

[asf]

Jeff at Fotocare in NYC has a pair for sale

[neil poulsen]

Each or per pair?

Per pair.

[neil poulsen]

Jeff at Fotocare in NYC has a pair for sale

Thanks. I looked on their site and couldn't find them. They had similarly appearing extensions that were for flags, lighting accessories. But, nothing I could find related to Normas.

[neil poulsen]

Then there's always that old trick of inclining the main rail (or bed with flatbed cameras) upward somewhat, then correcting both the front and rear standards back to vertical.

I've tried this, and it works. But, I like the idea of being able to raise the front. And when one focuses, the effective rise varies, etc. Also, it makes it difficult to do swing and rise together. But, it'll work fine, until I come up with a different solution.

[Struan Gray]

Len, I can take a look at the threads on mine, but I won't have access to bolts and thread gauges until next week. I have a memory of the thread being a standard one, but it's quite possible I'm thinking of something else.

I would be surprised to find an imperial thread, but you never know. German and other continental manufacturers did use UK-inspired fine-pitch small diameter threads (BA series in particular) much longer than seems logical. Larger threads are almost always metric, except for things like garden hoses and spark plugs - neither of which is usually found on a Norma.

[Leonard Robertson]

Struan - I would much appreciate it if you can check the threads on your Norma and see what you think the size is. Part of my struggle is I don't have a metric micrometer so I have to measure in thousands of an inch then convert to mm and I never entirely trust my final answer. The metric thread spec charts I'm finding all read in mm so math must be done.

It is probably time to buy a 0-25mm mic. One of those easy to read electronic calipers seems attractive except for the need for batteries. Batteries and I don't get along well. The words I think of when I hear "battery" are "dead" or "leaky".

Something I never thought about before is the availability of aluminum stock and taps and dies in post-WWII Europe when the Norma was designed and first produced. Sinar may not have been able to buy exactly the material and tooling sizes they wanted, but rather designed around what was available to them. Maybe 3/8"X16tpi tap/die size was easy to find and a close metric size wasn't. I believe there were serious shortages of many things in Europe in the late 1940s.

If anyone has a tripod head with a removable 3/8" screw (such as a Gitzo), try threading it down into top of the Norma upright and see what you think of the fit.

Len

[Greg]

Just confirmed that a 3/8" tripod mounting screw fits perfectly...

[Jerry Bodine]

Checked fit using Sinar 3/8" screw to mount camera to Norma Pan-Tilt head. Good fit.
Checked fit using Gitzo 3/8" camera mounting screw. Good fit.
Checked fit using Leitz 3/8" camera mounting screw. Good fit.

[Struan Gray]

Feeling like a mea culpa is already in order......

3/8 is looking good. I'll check mine in case this is a Europe / USA thing.

[Leonard Robertson]

Thanks everyone for checking on the 3/8-16 thread size. At least I no longer wonder if I'm hallucinating. It occurs to me Sinar would have needed 3/8-16 taps on hand to tap the rail clamp for the tripod mounting thread. If that size thread was close to the size needed for the top of the uprights, why not use it? It is also a rather coarse thread so threading on upright extensions would be a bit quicker than if a finer thread metric thread was used. I know that seems a trivial advantage but who knows what may seem important to a designer or engineer?

The other odd thing I noticed - the outer diameter of the uprights is approximately 11mm. If they started with 12mm or larger rod with a rough surface finish, turning it down to 11mm for a nice finish seems possible. But the diameter I'm measuring of 0.433 inches is just slightly smaller than 7/16" (0.4375"). No way of knowing what size stock Sinar originally used for the uprights, but the almost 7/16" size is intriguing.

Len

[Greg]

The other odd thing I noticed - the outer diameter of the uprights is approximately 11mm. If they started with 12mm or larger rod with a rough surface finish, turning it down to 11mm for a nice finish seems possible. But the diameter I'm measuring of 0.433 inches is just slightly smaller than 7/16" (0.4375"). No way of knowing what size stock Sinar originally used for the uprights, but the almost 7/16" size is intriguing.

If you look closely the part of the standard under the rod and the rod are machined from one piece of metal.

[Leonard Robertson]

Greg - Thanks so much for pointing out the one piece construction. Somehow that seems like doing it the hard way compared to making the round uprights separate pieces, but who am I to criticize the father of Norma? At first I was thinking they machined this piece from a piece of bar stock, but it makes more sense that they would have started from a casting. It could be done either way but a casting would have been much less machining. On the other hand when they first started Norma production and were uncertain how many would be sold they may not have gone to the trouble of making a mold for castings. Fascinating subject to wonder about.

Len

[neil poulsen]

If you look closely the part of the standard under the rod and the rod are machined from one piece of metal.

That's impressive. I tried unscrewing the riser, thinking that it could be used to machine the extensions. Good thing that I didn't try any harder. :o

[barnacle]

One thought (from a position of complete ignorance): given that all the tripod fittings fit so well, is this possibly a 3/8 Whitworth thread? Close but not exactly the same as a 3/8-16. I'd suspect it would have been a more common thing to find in a European workshop than the US thread.

Neil

[Struan Gray]

OK, my thread gauges are a commute away, but my camera is here, so I unscrewed a black knob and it fits perfectly into the 3/8 socket in the bottom of various cameras and tripod heads.

I don't know what the reason might be, but I sincerely doubt it was a lack of tooling. My grandfather built Seafires during WWII, and although machine tools were hard to come by during the War (and aluminium stock like gold dust), both were freely available later as war stocks were wound down. Switzerland would have had no trouble getting hold of the required dies and taps. It's more likely that Koch wanted it to be possible to screw standard spigots (for flash equipment perhaps?) into the tops of the standards. I have never seen a Sinar publication advocating anything other then the systems of rods, but you never know.

I suspect the standard upright and its foot were made in one piece for stiffness. A socket would have been needed otherwise, and that and a bolt would have added to the bulk. The flared out portion (needed to provide enough friction to lock tilts) prevents the standards coming close together as it is.

As for the diameter, i suspect the surface finish on extruded rod wasn't good enough for smooth operation, so any upright needed to be machined to tolerance (another reason for making the upright from oversize stock). Then, my experience is only anecdotal, but the instrument makers I worked with at a lab in Berlin used to ream holes to nominal size and use slightly undersized shafts. I was taught the opposite in my (UK) school machine shop, but reamers come in undersize/oversize sets, so I don't suppose it's an absolute rule, even in ISO-land.

[mdarnton]

Excuse me if someone has already mentioned this, but several weeks ago in another thread someone mentioned that 3/8x16 is for all practical purposes functionally identical to the related 10mm metric thread over the short distances that we usually thread camera stuff, which may account for its common use in camera fittings. 3/8 will fit 10mm better than 10mm will fit 3/8, though. Apparently.

[Sean Mac]

The BSW 3/8 x16 and the UNC 3/8 x16 are close.

British Standard Whitworth is 55 degrees angle and Unified Coarse is 60 degrees. The BSW has rounded crests and roots and is therefore a stronger form than UNC which has a flattened crest and root. A thread gauge and good light is really needed to be sure.

The Swiss do funny things. I have a Schaublin lathe with 6.35x1mm feedscrews:rolleyes:

The Swiss machine tool industry has roots in Massachusetts strangely enough. So an American thread form is very possible.

[RSalles]

Not sure if it's about these extension rails you're talking about:

https://goo.gl/photos/2LerRFf9cvtxM2Fw9

Are that?

Cheers,

Renato

[Leonard Robertson]

My findings based on a couple of M10X1.5mm bolts and a couple of 3/8"X16 bolts (limited sample in other words) - 3/8" bolts thread into M10X1.5mm nut, but the fit is pretty loose. Sinar upright cap is also quite a loose (almost "sloppy") fit into a 10mm nut. I can't get either 10mm bolt to thread into a 3/8"X16 nut. The metric bolts are used ones, but they thread into a new 10mm nut just fine. Measuring the outer thread diameter of both 3/8" and 10mm, the 10mm is about 0.016" larger than the 3/8". If anyone has nuts and bolts to try this, please see what sort of results you get.

There is information here on Whitworth tripod threads, under "Screw thread":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripod_%28photography%29

I never knew there was a 3/16X24 BSW tripod thread.

I tried a couple of screw pitch gauges (one a Starrett and one a Miller Falls) and on the Sinar upright cap thread. To me it looks like it is a 60 degree thread. But I don't have a 55 degree Whitworth pitch gauge for comparison, so I can't say for certain. If anyone has a Whitworth gauge I'm curious what you see.

Len

[Struan Gray]

The Swiss do funny things. I have a Schaublin lathe with 6.35x1mm feedscrews:rolleyes:

That's almost as much fun as the occasional left-hand threads and non-standard bolt heads secreted at odd points around 1970s British cars.

I've worked a lot on Ultra-high vacuum systems, where US and Metric equipment is compatible in terms of flange sizes, but the bolt sets are often different. There, the engaged length of the thread is long enough that there is a clear difference between 10 mm and 3/16. Mixing and matching will just lead to a jammed or rattling bolt or nut, and a leaking vacuum seal. The bolt heads are different enough that for reliable torque setting you need the correct spanner.

That said, there are surprisingly many mixed standards. The BA fine thread series was very influential, and for a long time Europeans would sometimes use bolts with metric head sizes and BA threads. The ISO M-series has pretty much taken over for coarse threads these days, but there are still oddball historical throwbacks like the tripod threads, garden hoses and plumbing and compressed gas fittings. There is a surprising amount of science to the design of a screw thread, so there are often good reasons for being conservative.

[Jerry Bodine]

There is a surprising amount of science to the design of a screw thread, so there are often good reasons for being conservative.

FWIW, my Sinar publication titled The SINAR Construction-Unit (undated, from around the time I bought my Normas in the late 60s) identifies the Pan-Tilt head's screw that secures the camera as Camera Screw, German 3/8". It also describes a bushing that can be installed in the bottom of the head (at tripod attachment) that is identified as Reducing Bushing German/English. This may not be much help in our discussion and may cause further confusion.

My experience in the aircraft industry for many years has taught me that there are separate tolerances for the screw thread and for the tapped hole that it's intended to be inserted into.

[Leonard Robertson]

I'm an amateur machinist with limited skills (at least I own a lathe and a couple of mills. Maybe it is a stretch to claim to be any sort of machinist). A few weeks ago I saw a YouTube video on changing just two gears on a my 9" South Bend lathe in order to cut many metric thread pitches with an error of less than 1%. I got the gears and last week cut my first metric thread. I'm missing a Norma upright cap so one project I planned was making a new approximation of a cap. You can probably see the irony here. The first part I need to make for my European camera needs to have an Imperial thread. Fortunately the gears are easy to change back to the standard ones.

Renato - To me the pieces in your picture look to be the upright extensions. I didn't realize they were red in color or there are two different lengths. I assume the ball and socket pieces are to run horizontal stabilizer rods from the top of the front and rear standards. I need to get out my Norma catalog and study up on these parts.

Len

[Jerry Bodine]

Len -
If it's any help, there are some closeup photos of the stabilizing rods, riser end caps, and clamps for the rods that screw into the risers and rear standard. See them on the Glennview website:

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

He should be able to confirm the thread size for you; he makes a lot of parts himself.

[Struan Gray]

Jerry, I now work part time with translations, and you would be amazed what English-as-a-second-language technical folk will sometimes insist is the correct English for a word or phrase. Don't forget, the Norma manuals were the ones advocating using the 5x7 system box as a rucksack :-)

Len: if you have the bolt hard-anodised, you may find it binds, as the anodising adds a thickness. Most places that do that kind of work can tell you how much to undersize the part. (It's not much, but it can be significant).

[Jerry Bodine]

...the Norma manuals were the ones advocating using the 5x7 system box as a rucksack...

Struan, I do have a Sinar Norma publication promoting the many configurations of the system; it shows a pic of a photographer in a suit, climbing some stairs, with that 5x7 case on his back (like a rucksack) and carrying his tripod in its case in one hand. I cringe every time I see it.

[asf]

I have the case with the image inside, just shake my head when I see

But I firmly believe that people were generally much stronger 50 years ago

[Struan Gray]

They certainly wore suits more often :-)

[Keith Pitman]

149986149987


Here's a scan from the 1967 Sinar Instruction Booklet. The text indicates that the rods (which must have been in multiple sections) were used for stabilizing long extensions (when you have the "clamping joints"), for extending front rise, and for attaching other devices to the camera.