Pacemaker wobbling tripod mount

[Jbuck]

Hello! a good friend is trying to refurbish my Pacemaker Speed.

One of the problems is:
The tripod mounting hole in the bottom of the camera is shaking..

However, the plate in which the thread is inserted is firm .
So there seems to be 2 components (? hope this make sense ?) If the wobbling normal, or is it risky?
can everything rip out when a big fat lens is attached?

i would hate to rip off the leather...

thanks for suggestions and ideas!

[Kevin Crisp]

It isn't normal. I don't have mine in front of me at the moment and I've had a plate on there so long I don't remember the construction. There isn't an interior bushing it screws into from the other side?

[Jac@stafford.net]

That's not a secure situation. Best fix it.

The tripod mount is held on by three screws. You can remove the covering neatly using a razor. If the fasteners cannot be tightened properly, then remove all three, rotate the mount to find fresh material, drill holes and use new screws. Cover it back up using gaffer's tape.

[Kevin Crisp]

I found a picture of the part out of a camera, there are three holes in the part. So it would be three screws into wood. You could rotate it or if you don't have a drill, up the size of the screws. Or the time honored trick of stuffing toothpicks in the holes then screwing the screws back in.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I like the toothpick trick, Kevin. I'd add a spot of wood glue.

[plaubel]

I like the toothpick trick. I'd add a spot of wood glue.

Talking about Jbuck's camera, there isn't a problem with the connection between the plate and the camera; from first seeing, the thread seems to be a separate inlay, connected somehow with the plate.
And exactly this connection isn't tight - the thread wobbles ( only the thread, not the whole plate) .

I am not sure if I am right with the inlay theory, but a loosen thread in general will not give me a good feeling.
After locking my tripod to the camera, everything is sturdy, because the bolt of my ballhead pulls at the camera thread and gives preasure this way - but my bad feeling stays.

Maybe somebody here has seen an uncovered plate, without leather, and may say something about quality/security/probably risks?
If not, I have to destroy a bit of the leather, as described; building a new plate with a new thread ( I would prefer 3/8inch) isn't a problem to me, but in general I love to keep the original condition.

Thanks,
Ritchie

[Kevin Crisp]

148395If the part looks like the attached, which I found on line, and if it is screwed in tight to the wood, then I suppose the tube the threads are in could be broken off. So either fix it with JB weld or get one off a mildewed junker. Which I happen to have one of, but it is really old.

[plaubel]

148395If the part looks like the attached

Thanks, Kevin.
Unfortunately I can't see anything than the thread, the rest is covered by leather.
If your example is an original part, it will give me the idea that our system may not be original, because we have a rectangle plate of nearly 1 x 2 inch under the leather.
It is possible that this plate covers the original and loose round part.
In this case, I decide to open the patient.
Let's see, what Jac may bring in, thanks again..

[Jac@stafford.net]

About the post I deleted - forget what I wrote. It turns out that removing and replacing the tripod mount is not trivial. It can be done, of course, but it is not simple enough that I am comfortable in describing the how-to. If I can simplify it, I will, but only when I have time.

In the meantime - to the OP - again, there is another tripod mount under the leather handle, but it restricts you to shooting verticals. I'm not happy with tilting the tripod head to make a horizontal frame, or with making/using an L-shaped adapter.

Thanks for reading, and hopefully understanding.
--
Jac

[Jim Jones]

If the threaded bushing is loose within its flange, a hardware store T-nut might be a suitable substitute. I usually try to mount T-nuts for tripod screws from the inside of the camera like one of my Pacemakers. Another one is different, with a big nut on the inside probably holding the tripod mount system together.

[mdarnton]

Could the rectangular mount under the leather be like the photo of the bottom of the camera here near the bottom of the page? http://jongrepstad.com/building-a-large-format-camera/refurbishing-a-crown-graphic-camera/

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...]T-nut might be a suitable substitute. I usually try to mount T-nuts for tripod screws from the inside of the camera like one of my Pacemakers.

A type of T-nut is what is in the Pacemaker - the one without teeth.

Perhaps you could describe how you installed the T-nut; how you accessed the bottom of the camera; what parts you removed. That would definitely help.

[plaubel]

Jim, the inside mounted t-nut is more sturdy, I thinks so, too.
Our old german 9x12 folding Plattenkameras used this way.
But it wouldn't be done in an easy way at the Graflex...


Michael, yes, something like this, but covered with the camera leather and fixed with 5 screws.
The more I read here, and the more I look at the camera, I feel that this seems not to be original.
Maybe there was something wrong with the original technique and a preowner tried to fix.

Jac, I now will discover the leather and I want to have a look inside; damaged leather is way better than a damaged camera by falling to the ground.
If necessary, I will change some parts, and if it is too curious there, I will share some pics.


Thanks all,
Ritchie

[plaubel]

Oha !
Now, something is clear to me.
There isn't a real (metal)plate at the bottom of the camera; the 5 screws have no function, except combining some parts of broken wood.
This wood felt like a plate under the leather; it became more thick than the original ground of the camera.
It has somehow another colour, and is more bright, too:

148427

148428


Kevin,Jac, the well described t-nut is obviously installed from inside the camera.
After removing some loose wood, we can see the t-nut, and of course we can see the reason for whobbling: there are no screws which will fix the t-nut.

148429

Missing screws aren't nice, but replaceable.
Broken wood must become replaced or stabilized.

If it is worth to Jbuck, I can machine something like a big and solid plate with my lathe and my mill, but concerning using heavy and long lenses, I prefer to fix the plate from inside of the camera.
In this way, I have to replace the bellows; for me this looks that I have to replace the complete focal plane back, too.
I already can feel the fun in making this,I really love that jobs, but first I have to know how to replace the bellows, and if there are difficulties with removing the back. If necessary..

Do you have a nice explanation for this work , a good manual/link? Any drawings??
Or is there nothing to fear and I can start from now?

Thanks,
Ritchie

[Jim Jones]

A type of T-nut is what is in the Pacemaker - the one without teeth.

Perhaps you could describe how you installed the T-nut; how you accessed the bottom of the camera; what parts you removed. That would definitely help.

I haven't had to replace the tripod socket in a SG yet. I did buy one with two large rectangular brass plates screwed to the outside of the camera body and threaded for the tripod screw, replacing both the bottom and side tripod sockets. Too heavy! In new construction, I would use a T-nut mounted from the inside and secured with small screws as in some SGs. Replacing such a tripod socket in aPacemaker SG might be inconvenient due to parts that operate above the tripod socket. Some SGs seem to retain the tripod socket with a nut on the inside of the body. Analyzing this might require making a mess of the camera.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Oha !
Now, something is clear to me. There isn't a real (metal)plate at the bottom of the camera; the 5 screws have no function, except combining some parts of broken wood.

I think you will find that four of the screws fasten the rear bed tracks to the body. Removing them does not allow the part to be removed, so something else is happening here - perhaps the tracks are stuck, or maybe glued as well. I might just sacrifice mine to an exploration. Let me gather the courage first.

[plaubel]

Thanks, Jac, but please don't sacrifice your cam, you know the old mechanics wisdom: never change a running system :-)
I just have to know, how to remove the bellows, which will give me the place to remove the rear bed tracks right under the bellows, and then to adapt a highly solid aluminium groundplate to the outside, multiple screwed/locked from inside.
For drilling the thread I have to buy an inch tool, I only own metric thread drills. No problem.
After all, we should make some freeclimbing along the lens, if Jbuck's tripod is strong enough..

[Jim C.]

plaubel, Pacemaker and Crown Graphics share the same mounting system for the bellows,
the rear frame if the bellows is aluminum with 2 tabs in each corner ( total of 8 )
that are bent over the inner body frame. You'll need to remove the camera back to get
at them properly, just bend the tabs enough to remove the rear bellows frame.

[mdarnton]

No need to dig. I took my extra junker apart this AM.

First, getting the bellows on mine was easier: the tabs that hold my bellows on are actually U channel clips---put a screwdriver under one and it slides off.

Second, the front bed of the camera is hinged to an inner bed, also of metal. That is held to the wooden frame of the camera only by the four screws that hold the rear track guides in place. The screws go through the track guides, through the inner metal bed, down into the wood. Take them out and the whole track base, hinge, and front panel come off. At that point I started taking off the guides for the diagonal brace---five screws on each side. With the back of the bellows off, the back tracks loose, and the brace guides off, everything drops off. I had already taken the front upright off after I loosened the back of the bellows by dropping the bed and pulling the upright forward off it's back track.

With all of that off, in my camera you're looking down at a very classy and solid t-nut, held in place with three screws.

First two clips, short, top and bottom:

148445

Second two clips, long with a clamp at each end, on the sides:

148446

The bottom of the camera, showing rail tracks; notice the metal floor inside, hinged to the drop-down front:

148447

Removing the rail tracks:

148448

[mdarnton]

Final photos:

Removing the side brace brackets
148450

The t-nut, exposed. Notice the large holes out on the edge of the photo for the track screws, which were metal bolts, not wood screws. I assume there's some kind of threaded metal insert in that hole somewhere, maybe plugged in from the bottom or screwed in from the top.
148449

I have noticed that the details of these cameras changed over time. Both my good camera, a Pacemaker Crown and this Pacemaker Speed junker are early side-RF cameras, but they differ in details, including the placement of the button for opening the camera and the associated mechanism, so I wouldn't presume to think that all of these cameras are the same.

[Bill_1856]

I hate to bring this up, but the Pacemaker Graphic has a body of mahogany. It could be deteriorating wood causing the problem, not the metal socket. I hope not!

[mdarnton]

It could also be that the fall that mashed up the bottom wood so badly happened when the camera was on a tripod, and this started ripping out the screws, though because of the directions involved, it really couldn't do that. But possibly pulling the screws, shoving a wooden match and some glue in, then putting the screws back in, might tighten the whole thing right back nicely. That's the possibility I'd look to first.

[Jac@stafford.net]

M. Darton, your information and photos are golden. You are right, of course, that there were variations as mentioned in the URL below.

Graphlex.org has a factory repair manual here (http://www.graflex.org/manuals/45-Pacemaker-Speed-and-Crown-Graphic.pdf).

[mdarnton]

Notice that in my third photo, of the floor of the camera, that there's a round hole in the metal with the shadow of a hex nut on it. When I flip that plate over, I see that there's a hex pressed into the plate around the hole, but not like a nut would do--it's as if the metal were pressed into a hex-shaped pipe, making a hex indentation. However, there's nothing hex in that area at all. I am wondering if that was a way to mount something for the initial machining of the parts.

Hexagonal mystery:

148451

[plaubel]

Wow, fantastic help here, really, this all will safe me a lot of time and maybe some trouble!

I started removing the back, so the shutter tissue says hello to me.
Nice to see a bit of this technique.
At this point, a Pacemaker looks to me as a well done machine.

Over the years I have thought, this types have less movements to me, but the shutter thing combined with the weight ( I only knowed before my 13x18cm Mentor FP camera with some more than 5 Kilograms) seems to be a good reason to buy one, too.

Tomorrow, I have to search the clips in this dark black hole called camera body.
With all your help there is no doubt to me that Jbuck will be able to use his Graflex soon.

Because of the weakened wood I decided to bring an aluminium plate to the bottom and to drill a bigger 3/8" thread,if possible, so some day he would be able to use big tripod /head bolts; meanwhile we screw in a 1/4" adapter, which works fine over the years to all my adaptered threads.

I will give back a small documentation of my work and I wish to say again: thank you!

Ritchie

[Jac@stafford.net]

Notice that in my third photo, of the floor of the camera, that there's a round hole in the metal with the shadow of a hex nut on it. [... snip important stuff - see the post ...]

Yes, I noticed that which brings up another approach. I simply slipped the front standard off the rails and lifted it up so that the inside bottom plate was fully exposed. It seems this is another way to get to the floor of the body without removing the back. No?

[mdarnton]

I did that first, but then decided that since the back was already off my camera, and I'd appreciate the extra space, taking the bellows off wasn't that big of a deal. You'd have a hard time getting the screws out with the bellows in the way. Maybe not impossible, but hard.

[plaubel]

I prefer to protect the bellows, too.
I don't want to fiddle with a bellows in front of my nose..
Removing seems not to need so much time, and spending let's say 15 minutes for removing the bellows also will save time for the next steps, so for me it is the best solution and I will do it today.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] taking the bellows off wasn't that big of a deal. You'd have a hard time getting the screws out with the bellows in the way. Maybe not impossible, but hard.

You are right. I tend to take a complicated route. Once I adjusted the valves on my car by working through the tail pipe. :)

[Bill_1856]

What a GREAT FORUM!

[mdarnton]

The other thing I didn't mention is that the cable release to the front shutter is held in place only by the lock nut for the front rise on that side. I started to disassemble it all before I figured that simple thing out.

The instructions linked to before implied that a previous version of the bellows used only two clips to hold it, and that to remove the other two sides the bellows frame needs to be flexed. Best to read the instructions before digging in. :-)

[Jbuck]

thanks soo much guys for all the help! i also love this forum! :-)

[plaubel]

Today I had to schlepp tons of wood and steel - just a move, not for the Pacemaker.
My tattering hands are not in the mood to remove bellows now - maybe tomorrow.

Michael, I will have a look at the linked instruction if problems arrive.
Now I know where to read or to ask about...

Ritchie

[Jac@stafford.net]

Today I had to schlepp tons of wood and steel - just a move, not for the Pacemaker.
My tattering hands are not in the mood to remove bellows now - maybe tomorrow.

Wear mechanix gloves! (http://image.trucktrend.com/f/42151543+re0+ar0+st0/1301tr-02-mechanic-gloves-mechanix-wear-m-pact.jpg) That is something I learned only after terrible working accidents that left one hand almost crippled.

Take care!

[Bill_1856]

You are right. I tend to take a complicated route. Once I adjusted the valves on my car by working through the tail pipe. :)

Are you a proctologist in your day job?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Are you a proctologist in your day job?

You are the only person who got the joke. Good for you.
.

[plaubel]

Thanks, Jac.

My hands are okay ( and if necessary, I wear gloves, too); it's my rusty muscle which made me tattering.
I have to move with my complete workshop;
the heavy parts are for specialists then.

Interesting gloves , they look like a robot's hand...

Ritchie

[plaubel]

First part of the operation is done, and I will bring in some pics later.
No problems at all from the mechanical side, you just have to screw and to screw...
The bellows jumped out in an easy way; after removing two U-channel clips, there stay another tiny 4 U-channel clips, which are connected with the back frame of the bellows.

With a bit of care, I was able to bring out the bellows as Michael has said before.
Same for the rail mechanism, no need to repeat Michaels description.

Now, our problem:
Discovering the bottom wood has been an important idea, because now we can see the total weakness of the wood.
The area around the hole which keeps the tripod t-nut ( missing all the screws there!) is so weak, that I am able to move the wood only by pushing a bit with my finger; some more pressure would give a break, of course.

The wood of the camera floor himself has an approximatively thickness of 14mm, enough flesh to work with (screwing, drilling, fixing).

Cocerning the value/price of the camera I have to go a not so expensive way, but on the otherside I want to guarantee a long life to this baby after my work is done.
Maybe we spare out the optical design (milling) of the new parts; I have to clear this with the owner.

As thought before, for me a big aluminium plate, multiple screwed from the inner side will give the best solution.
From mechanical side, normally I would prefer a sandwich of :
the aluminium plate (outside),
the camera wood ( in the middle),
another plate, from the inner side.

Our inner rail bed would give such a sandwich plate, but drilling wellplaced holes into three different materials isn't so easy, and I really fear some torsion of the rail bed ( with it's weak thickness of 1,5mm) after fixing the screws, which would end in bad results.

So let's start phase two - looking and thinking about.

Some pics later,
Ritchie

[mdarnton]

In similar cases, I have used the thinnest type of super glue and saturated the cracks, opening them as much as possible, bending and pumping, then pressed everything back together. Then that glue will have soaked in, so more needs to be added. In wood, the thin glue can initially soak right in and do nothing, so you shouldn't feel bad about using too much and having to scrape it off later. Spraying with the designated fixative will harden the glue into a harder substance than when it dries by itself, but this won't reach deeply inwards. I am not sure that matters, since you don't want brittle joints. I leave off fixative where I want shock resistance.

After everything has dried, the result can be quite strong. For myself, I would try that. If you wanted to take it one more step, remove the leather from the bottom, rout off about 3mm of wood in as large an area as possible, but not out to the edge, then inlay a plate of aluminum there with a hole for original the tripod screw, then replace the leather. That will take a lot of the stress off the glued wood, and I think that would be sufficient.

[Jbuck]

good evening folks!

saving time is more important than fantastic optics! :-)
i just want to be able to use it securely with the big lenses... and i have an important shoot coming.

thanks again guys for the help and thanks plaubel:-)... your awesome for helping me!

[plaubel]

If time is rare, we just should cover the problem with the aluminium plate, after glueing the wood.
The fastest thing to me would be rounding a plate with my lathe; something like a really big t-nut rises in my head...
machining an aluminium plate of let's say 2 cm thickness..

We need a lot of flesh for the tripod bolt...
perhaps drilling a bigger hole and in this, removing the weak wood in the bottom of the camera,
fixing the t-nut outside by screwing from inside, yes.

For big lenses and enough security we need a remaining plate of 4, maybe 5mm. Not as beauty as Michaels version then, but sturdy. And quick.
Maybe 4 new but simple feed?

[Jbuck]

I just came from Plaubels operating room, and only now I understand what was actually happening under the leather of the Pacemaker.
im still shocked.. but happy Ritchie found it out before the Pacemaker made contact with my floor :-)

can't wait to use the camera again!

[mdarnton]

That's why I suggested super glue. I have regularly used it to amalgamate broken up wood in places with much more stress than we're talking about here. It's a way to do complex fixes without a whole lot of fuss. Me, I wouldn't even bother with the metal plate, but I understand the need to feel safe.

[plaubel]

Fixing the wood by glueing normally should work fine, but we have to bring in a solution for best tripod mounting and for using heavy and long lenses; in this scene, the wood is absolutely too weak, as JBuck has seen today.
The camera has to become a working horse for sometimes rough outdoor conditions, so we need it as solid as possible.

In this case, we will first glue the wood, and then we will use an aluminium covering plate with a centered and thick tripod mounting area.

In general, here I don't trust the original construction for tripod mounting; in my opinion it was too weak, the t-nut is too small, and I wouldn't do the same.
The same construction with the same t-nut (size) you will find at this lovely, but compared with the Graflex tiny 9x12cm Plattenkameras like my Zeiss , and there it works good enough.
They are lightweight and they only have lightweight lenses.

I really don't like the idea that this original t-nut with less then 1 inch in diameter, mounted on a thin wooden base of only few millimeters, has to carry the weight of a Graflex plus Aero Ektar (please don't forget the statics of Graflex plus Aero at near distances,too) and I would expect exactly what happened to the broken Pacemaker.

So only glueing the wood to me is a good idea if the Graflex just carry the lightweights like Ektar 127mm, but if I have to use big and heavy lenses, and if I get a chance to do, then I better prefer to construct twice of the need.

My new and somehow special t-nut now gets a diameter of 8cm/ 3inch, which guarantees a solid construction and very good grip to the wood.
I will connect the tripod adapter plate with extra screws . Aluminium is ordered now.

Thanks for your start up help,
Ritchie

[plaubel]

I forgot to tell the rest of the story..

I bought an aluminium plate of 85x85x20 mm.
Finally, I decided to let the plate a rectangle plate. It covers more of the weak wood than a rounded place, and I felt to give the new horseshoe maximum contact to the camera.

In using my lathe, I was able to get the recommended design.
The t-nut for tripods isn't centered into the camera, so I had to decenter the plate's tripod connection, too.

149360

Next step - removing the weak wood and widening the old t-nut hole:


149363

Cleaning the aluminium plate and connecting to the camera:

149366

[plaubel]

149367

grabbing all the camera parts, and voila, a sturdy now Pacemaker:


149369



149368

Ritchie

[Jac@stafford.net]

Thank you for the follow-up! It looks great.

[plaubel]

Nah, great looking is another game, but thanks Jack.
If time and money wouldn't be important, I would grab my old standing mill and create something nice, with an integrated quick connection and some feet, angles to all edges, this all off one thick plate and at least covering the whole bottom of the camera.


Best,
Ritchie

[plaubel]

Some technical details:
The bottom wood has a thickness of 14mm, the plate has now sturdy 7mm and her "original" 85x85 mm, so my lathe robbed 13mm metal out of the plate; the decentered tripod mount has 13mm in heigth ( totally 20mm !) and nearly 26mm/a good inch in diameter.

I slightly repared the shift fixation of the front standard, and I had to drill new holes to the shutter cover (the back of the camera); there hasn't been any connection to the body - weak wood there , too...

[plaubel]

Some technical details:
The bottom wood has a thickness of 14mm, the plate has now sturdy 7mm and her "original" 85x85 mm, so me and my lathe robbed 13mm metal out of the plate; the decentered tripod mount has 13mm in heigth ( totally 20mm) and nearly 26mm/a good inch in diameter.

I slightly repared the shift fixation of the front standard, and I had to drill new holes to the shutter cover (the back of the camera); there hasn't been any connection to the body - weak wood there , too...

[Jbuck]

it looks super stabilized now and I'm incredibly happy that Plaubel found this soulution.
i just waiting for a flang and than i post some pic of the camera in action.

thanks to everyone who contributed and specialy Plaubel!