160mm f3.5 petzval on 5x7: question

[Rael]

I just purchased a petzval lens from a forum member, and I'm having a bit of trouble with it -- It seems like the farthest distance my subject can be away from the camera without vignetting is about 27 inches, which is much less than what I was hoping for. He told me up front that it would likely not focus at infinity with full illumination, but I expected it would be good out some distance up to maybe 7-10 feet, which is what I'd consider "portrait distances." (Since I'm just a newbie, perhaps this was just wishful thinking on my part.)

So..I started reading old threads here and on APUG and trying to digest them. One possible solution seemed to be to stop the lens down, and since it has a slot for waterhouse stops, I was thinking I could do that and get some additional coverage. The other solution is to sell this lens to someone with a 4x5 and get something else. So, I guess my first question would be the easiest: Which of these options seems more reasonable? My second question probably involves math. How much would I have to stop it down to get the sort of coverage I'm looking for out to 10 or 15 feet? I don't really mind if it's distorted or blurry on the edges as long as there isn't any sharp demarcation type vignetting, like I'm seeing now with anything past that 27 inch distance. Any advice? Thanks.

[goamules]

A 6" Petzval was made to cover quarterplate, 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, though sometimes they will barely cover 4x5. 5x7? No way. Also, the Petzval design has a lot narrower angle of view than more modern lenses, so you have to go longer than you would with, say, an anastigmat. You will need at least a 9" lens, whoever sold you a 6" and said it would cover 5x7 is sorely mistaken, or it's not F3.5 (Some projector Petzvals at F9 or F11 might, if they were that short, but even that is doubtful.) Sure, you can crank out the bellows of any lens to about double infinity, and get maybe 1/3 more coverage....but you also will get a funny perspective (giant nose, rounded face, etc).

Your best option is to get a lens the correct length. Stopping down a Petzval will only give you a tiny bit more coverage. Again, they're not like a more modern lens.

[Rael]

A 6" Petzval was made to cover quarterplate, 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, though sometimes they will barely cover 4x5. 5x7? No way.

Bummer, I was afraid of that. Here's the original description from eBay:

british Petzval Brass Lens 160mm F3.5 Graflex 4x5 5x7 wet plate (Aero Ektar alt)

Selling a very fine antique Petzval design lens for the 4x5 or even 5x7 format. The brass looks very fine with a nice patina (i didn't polish it) and very fine glass, which shows no fungus or seperation.The lens features a waterhouse slot (a sign that its a taking not projection lens), though no stops are included. The out of focus area on the other hand is absolutely lovely as you would expect from a lens that format and design. There is no branding on the brass, but the glass was market by W.H. which would lead to the british maker and reseller Wallace Heaton in London. The lens comes mounted on a 4x4 wooden lensboard which will work with most graflex and 4x5 cameras. A wonderful piece of history for large format users, especially for the wet plate process with a wide open aperture of F3.5.

[goamules]

It all sounds well and good, except you said it's a 160mm Focal Length (6.4"). Did the ad say the focal length? I'm also not sure what he means by an unmarked lens having glass marketed by "W.H.". How does he know? If there are penciled initals on the edge, it's probably French, likely a Darlot. If you post a picture I can probably tell you. Shoot it on 4x5, and look for a longer one for bigger formats.

[Rael]

It all sounds well and good, except you said it's a 160mm Focal Length (6.4"). Did the ad say the focal length? I'm also not sure what he means by an unmarked lens having glass marketed by "W.H.". How does he know? If there are penciled initals on the edge, it's probably French, likely a Darlot. If you post a picture I can probably tell you. Shoot it on 4x5, and look for a longer one for bigger formats.

Thanks. I edited my post to include the title, which I left off by mistake. Yes, there were penciled initials of W.H. on the side of the front cemented pair, looks like.147703147704

[goamules]

The flat, single knob knurling looks Darlot. As does the knurling behind the hood. The short hood looks fairly late, I'd say post 1880. Most photography Petzvals from the 1840s to 1880s had deeper hoods. Darlot almost always penciled "Darlot" or "Jamin" if they wrote anything on the lens edge though. It's probably some other maker, could even be a projector lens that had the waterhouse window cut out. The knob was probably replaced, there is no reason it would be shiny brass and the rest heavy black patina.

[Rael]

The flat, single knob knurling looks Darlot. As does the knurling behind the hood. The short hood looks fairly late, I'd say post 1880. Most photography Petzvals from the 1840s to 1880s had deeper hoods. Darlot almost always penciled "Darlot" or "Jamin" if they wrote anything on the lens edge though. It's probably some other maker, could even be a projector lens that had the waterhouse window cut out. The knob was probably replaced, there is no reason it would be shiny brass and the rest heavy black patina.

Hmmm...interesting. I'd say the waterhouse window is legit at least, because it has solid round masks on the inside, so the stops drop between them completely. 147705

[Rael]

It all sounds well and good, except you said it's a 160mm Focal Length (6.4"). Did the ad say the focal length? I'm also not sure what he means by an unmarked lens having glass marketed by "W.H.". How does he know? If there are penciled initals on the edge, it's probably French, likely a Darlot. If you post a picture I can probably tell you. Shoot it on 4x5, and look for a longer one for bigger formats.

The whole reason I wanted it was to try ambrotypes on the 5x7...so I got screwed/misled, I guess. Partly my own fault for not doing enough research to know it wouldn't cover based on the size, and taking his word that it would work at portrait distances on 5x7. So far, communication attempts with him via both the forum and eBay have gone unanswered. I'm hoping he's on vacation or something, but I doubt it.

[brandon13]

The whole reason I wanted it was to try ambrotypes on the 5x7...so I got screwed/misled, I guess. Partly my own fault for not doing enough research to know it wouldn't cover based on the size, and taking his word that it would work at portrait distances on 5x7. So far, communication attempts with him via both the forum and eBay have gone unanswered. I'm hoping he's on vacation or something, but I doubt it.

Personally I would like at least 10 inch FL for 5x7 more like 11-12. 10 inch f5 Wollensak Vesta lenses pop up quite often for not too much. Also the idea that a certain Focal length will cover the same on all makes of petzvals is just not true. Expect to pay a bit for a good portrait petzval.

[Rael]

Just to clarify on this, I did finally hear from the seller, and it turns out he was just very busy on a shoot, which is why he didn't get back to me for a few days. He was as bummed as I was that the lens wasn't going to do what I had hoped it would, and was more than willing to make it right. After speaking with him at length, he has another lens he is going to mount on a 5x7 camera to see if it fits my needs and he's going to allow me to send the one I have back, and will even cover the shipping to send me a new one after we figure out the price differential. Since it's coming from overseas, I feel this is more than fair.

I have to apologize for thinking he intentionally misled me. He is a reputable seller, and from my interactions with him, I can tell he's a good guy to boot. I was a little sensitive about it since I recently had a bad experience on eBay and was dreading a repeat, so it was more my perception of the sale than the reality.

[Steven Tribe]

Personally I would like at least 10 inch FL for 5x7 more like 11-12. 10 inch f5 Wollensak Vesta lenses pop up quite often for not too much. Also the idea that a certain Focal length will cover the same on all makes of petzvals is just not true. Expect to pay a bit for a good portrait petzval.

This very sensible. The difference in coverage between Petzvals with the same EFL is more a function of their speed design than the actual maker.

We must not forget that these lenses were made for studio cabinet size portraits. Very few were for the Imperial and larger sizes. I enclose a photo of a continental (French tourist 13x18cm) camera with an appropriate sized 25cm, F3.2 Voigtlander Petzval. Even though this is a tailboard camera and security precautions have been made, the lens weighs more than 2 kilos. Not exactly a harmonic combination!
Note that the tangential drive has been removed (saving weight?) and the barrel will soon slide out onto a concrete floor.