anyone print 4x5 negatives with a black border?

[ahotflash]

hi, I want to print the above at sizes larger than contact prints with a black border ("full-frame"). Is it possible to print a 4x5 negative on an old 4x5 Beseler enlarger which I use to print them at maybe 8x10 prints? Or do I have to move up to a 5x7 enlarger? Is it my enlarger lens length on my 4x5 enlarger that is too short? Also, can I modify my 4x5 enlarger to get a black border on prints?
(please help me with this, if it has been discussed include links)
thank you
d david y

[Jim Noel]

The black border is formed on the easel,not in the enlarger. You don't need a 5x7 enlarger.

[mdarnton]

If you're referring to 35mm full frame plus style then you need a neg carrier with a hole larger than the neg, and this implies that it needs to be glass. I rigged one up for myself from two pieces of glass, with a black masking tape hinge at the back, and on the inside of the bottom piece a black masking taped area to contain the negative, then I covered the rest of the glass on the outside with tape to mask off stray light. You will have to figure out where to put the negative to register it properly with the center of the lens, and if you don't use anti-newton ring glass on the top, you may or may not have newton ring problems. . . . I didn't.

On my Omega D2 I arranged it so that when the carrier was pushed all the way to the back the neg was centered, front to back. I don't remember how I'd do that with a Beseler--maybe you will need a strip of something on the bottom to locate the carrier.

Some glass carriers may do the job, also. I don't remember if the Omega glass carrier was oversize or not.

[ahotflash]

hi Jim, when my enlarger is at it's highest height with my longest enlarging lens on my 4x5 enlarger the projected image onto the baseboard is cut-off on the corners, all four. My goal is to get a projected negative image that I can print without the corners cut-off. (printed with a visible border around it)

[Jon Shiu]

you can make a negative carrier from sheet of glass and then mask off the edges with black card/tape

Jon

[Oren Grad]

You need two things to be able to do that: a glass-sandwich negative carrier with an opening large enough to show the entire sheet of film including the edges, and an enlarger head that is designed to illuminate 4x5" plus a bit, rather than being squeezed down to exactly 96x120mm.

That's easiest with a 5x7 enlarger, which will obviously have enough coverage and then some, but some 4x5 enlargers will work, too. I don't know about your Beseler.

[ahotflash]

hi mdarnton
I made a glass-negative-carrier similar to yours without anti newton glass. I checked the top of the enlarging head to see if the corners of the 4x5 negative "cleared" the "hole" (sorry if not the right term") where the negative goes and the corners of the negative do "clear" it with no cutting off the them. puzzled? may have to look for an Omega 4x5 enlarger to print full-frame?

[ahotflash]

Is my enlarger lens at 135mm too short to print full frame? Would a 150mm possibly work?

[Dan O'Farrell]

You are printing 4X5 negatives, using a 4X5 (old) Beseler enlarger, and you are using a 135mm lens, right?
The corners of the image are "cut off", right?
It sounds to me that you have the lens stage adjusted for a shorter lens.

If you look on the upper-right side of your lens stage, you should see a sliding scale,
which is adjusted by raising or lowering the upper bellows, and there should be a scale marker to indicate negative size (35mm to 4X5 in.)

There should be a knob on the LEFT side of the upper lens-stage, which will adjust the upper bellows; also, note that there is a smaller knob inward from the adjustment knob,
which locks the shaft. You will want to make sure that the shaft is free to rotate.

Try adjusting the upper bellows stretched upward, to its shorter (compressed) extent; this should be reflected on the scale opposite, to the 4X5 mark, which is at the bottom of the scale.

Try that, and see whether the corners of your projected image are now clearly illuminated.

Dan

[DG 3313]

I am playing with an 8x10 neg that was overexposed in the camera to wash out the image area but keep the reveal clear without fogging it.

After I processed the neg...I have a black image area that blocks the light falling on the paper except the reveal. I contact print this and then on another enlarger....I expose my print on the same paper. The reveal area is already black so, it won't show anything from the second exposure.

Still playing with it and not quite right yet.

Don

[Jim Noel]

You are printing 4X5 negatives, using a 4X5 (old) Beseler enlarger, and you are using a 135mm lens, right?
The corners of the image are "cut off", right?
It sounds to me that you have the lens stage adjusted for a shorter lens.

If you look on the upper-right side of your lens stage, you should see a sliding scale,
which is adjusted by raising or lowering the upper bellows, and there should be a scale marker to indicate negative size (35mm to 4X5 in.)

There should be a knob on the LEFT side of the upper lens-stage, which will adjust the upper bellows; also, note that there is a smaller knob inward from the adjustment knob,
which locks the shaft. You will want to make sure that the shaft is free to rotate.

Try adjusting the upper bellows stretched upward, to its shorter (compressed) extent; this should be reflected on the scale opposite, to the 4X5 mark, which is at the bottom of the scale.

Try that, and see whether the corners of your projected image are now clearly illuminated.

Dan

A good complete answer. I would add that several popular enlarging lenses will cut off the corners. At the college we went to 150mm lenses to prevent the problem.

[ahotflash]

hi Dan
yes the Beseler is an old MCRX45 with a 135mm enlarger lens and the final enlarged printed negatives larger than "contact-prints" e.g. 8x10 images have corners of the negative on the print cut off. (the sliding scale is set to 4x5 for the enlarger head but still cuts of the negative corners, frustating).
the Durst1200 may be able to print such prints without cut-off corners.

[ahotflash]

hi Jim
what brand enlarger was it? > d david y

[Dan O'Farrell]

Yep, must be the lens.

Dan

[mdarnton]

I'm betting that it's the condensors (or the negative stage). Even with them at the "proper" location, you may want to mess around with focusing them and see if you can find a better position than "proper" There really should not be a problem with the lens--no lens should cut off right at the corner of the neg! The other possibility, and I don't know Beseler, is that one of the plates directly above or below the carrier may need to be filed out a little in the corners to expose the whole neg at the corners. That might be the first thing to check.

[ahotflash]

hi mdarnton
by plates directly above or below the carrier; I use a homemade glass negative carrier with tape as a hinge. should i file the interior of the head where the "hole" of the cone of light passes through that the negative carrier sits atop?

[ahotflash]

I just double checked my enlarger lens on the 4x5 and it is a 150mm:
anyone use a lens longer than 150?

[mdarnton]

I'm still betting it's something to do with the condensers.

[Neal Chaves]

I too wanted that full frame plus the "rebate area" look. I was able to do it on a self-built 10X10 enlarger. What I did not like was they way the edges of the frame were rendered. Unlike with a contact print, enlarger light "pipes" through the film base of the negative.

[Greg]

I believe a Kostiner 11x14 Reverse Border Printer easel is what you are looking for.
For reference only, there is one currently on EBay at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kostiner-11x14-Reverse-Border-Printer-easel-RB14-LAST-ONE-/291673733258?hash=item43e91bf88a:g:cwEAAOSwT~9Whe5U
Never used one but years ago talked to another photographer who loved using this easel.

[Winger]

I have a Beseler MX45 and a 150mm lens. I tested to see what happens if I tried to get space around the outside after I read this earlier. My usual negative carrier is a glass one, regular Beseler. It barely lets me get to the inner edge of the rebate. I put a negative between pieces of glass to see what happens and there's only room around the image to get a little bit of black around it. The light is in a circle that almost touches the corners of the image (not quite, but really close). The image was about 9" by 11 1/4" because I didn't move the head from where it was - I'd figure it wouldn't be much different at different sizes. The condenser bellows is as far down as possible.
While mine does not cut off any IMAGE corners, it does make it difficult to put a black border around an image. If that's how the OP's is, I'd figure this is more by design than the enlarger being messed up. They optimized the light path to get the image to be fully lit, but without extraneous light.

[Jac@stafford.net]

When I was into black borders, I was also a steel worker and a buddy cut a beautiful piece of 1/4" steel (to exact dimensions I have forgotten.) I use a Saunders easel. I would expose for the print, place the steel plate between the blades, lift up the blades and expose by room light (just a switch on the bench).

Of course, you could try printing on black paper. :)

[Sirius Glass]

I would use a black mat with a white or off-white over mat.

[ic-racer]

Best way is to use a 5x7 or larger enlarger. Most large format enlargers I have used provide sufficient illumination for the area inside the rebate, but outside and the film edge can be difficult to print. The longer your enlarging lens the better chance of it working.

[ahotflash]

hi mdarnton
my condensor head is... too low? too high? not properly set-up?
could be true. but I have no examples to see if head is correctly set up.
Would a different head lower or higher create a different angle of light?

[ahotflash]

if I removed the two bellows it would free-up straighter light path... has anyone ever taken their bellows off an enlarger? or somehow lower the head so it would be closer to the negative.

[ahotflash]

This is the only solution to my current enlargers. Doug.

[ahotflash]

Buying a 5x6 enlarger, etc.

[ahotflash]

I live in Hawaii, and accessing enlargers that print 5x7 or larger are rare here.
Are there any other alternative ways to enlarge, focus and print full frame 4x5 negatives.
Doug.

[neil poulsen]

I have a 11x14 easel and a 16x20 easel. Both can print black borders. They each has an accordion style, expandable shade that covers the print itself as each edge is being exposed.

I've not done this to any print.

[Jim Noel]

No need to alter the enlarger. Try to find a Kostiner enlarging easel.

[ic-racer]

Here is an example of full frame printing with my 10x10 lightbox on my Durst that can just barely cover the full negative rebate. It is very close so very tedious to setup and get the borders even. I decided not to print like this anymore due to the difficulty.


217708

[maltfalc]

place a sheet of milky white plastic or glass directly above your negative.

[Paul Ron]

im using a 135mm lens on my bessler 45. i dont get any clipping at all. but the light circle is very close to the edges... im using a cold light with a diffuser and the condensers. my enlarger also has the filter draw just above the negative carrier.. without the filter draw part (its a head type accessory) i get an even larger light circle.

[esearing]

For my 8x10 speed easel I just cut a piece of plexiglass that fits inside the easel 7.5x9.5 then glued on black paper 1/8 less all the way around that contacts the print leaving the border exposed. Then shine a bright LED flashlight with a grade 5 filter on it for a few seconds. I need to make one for 5x12 and 11x14. I suppose in theory you could also make a negative carrier with two pieces of plexi or glass with a mask slightly larger than the negative and put them in the negative stage so you get black border with white outer border. But sometimes negatives are crooked in the holder at exposure so you have account for that.

[MartinP]

If the point of the request is to make a print with black borders, rather than to print the actual rebate and edge of the negative, then try the following:

1) decide whatever size enlargement you want
2) set the easel to expose the enlargement size plus the total borders (eg. 2mm borders => 4mm larger)
3) cut a piece of black card or mounting board smaller in each dimension than the print size, by the thickness of the black border you want (in other words, if you want a 2mm border make the insert 2mm smaller than the composed area you want to see).
4) centre the composition on the easel, remembering the outer 2mm (in the example used above) all round will be black
5) expose the image
6) put the insert in place pushed up to one corner, flash to black
7) move the insert to the diagonally opposite corner, flash to black
8) develop as usual

The method gives even borders all the way round, parallel to the easel arms. I can like the effect of printing the edges of the film sheet, but having a plain black border is more unusual outside of funerals. Having said this, I am not very trendy, so . . .

[Jim Noel]

I believe a Kostiner 11x14 Reverse Border Printer easel is what you are looking for.
For reference only, there is one currently on EBay at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kostiner-11x14-Reverse-Border-Printer-easel-RB14-LAST-ONE-/291673733258?hash=item43e91bf88a:g:cwEAAOSwT~9Whe5U
Never used one but years ago talked to another photographer who loved using this easel.

(I agree with Greg. I knw of nothing that wil beat the Kostiner. I love mine.

[Joe O'Hara]

Here is an example of full frame printing with my 10x10 lightbox on my Durst that can just barely cover the full negative rebate. It is very close so very tedious to setup and get the borders even. I decided not to print like this anymore due to the difficulty.


217708

Very nice outcome in this case, ic-racer. Is the black border critical to the success of this image? I think not.

I have never attempted this with 4x5 in my 4x5 enlarger, but I will venture to add the following.

During my brief and unlamented foray into photographic education in the university setting, printing with black borders
was practically universal amongst the students. The instructor wondered out loud one time whether this was because
otherwise the images would seem poorer. (My guess is that they were just imitating him, as it was his practice at the
time.) The idea, I suppose, was that it "proved" that you were using the full image area when you were photographing.
I adopted the convention and kept it up until I quit using 35mm for creative work around 1978. I liked how it looked.

My technique was simply to use an x-acto knife (which, in practice, is usually an approximato-knife) to cut a mask out
of black cardboard and use it in a 6x6 negative holder. The rough edges of the image got cut off when mounting.
Naturally, I did not have any problem with the border being black!

I have no strong opinions about the technique, but I still generally try to use all of the 4x5 negative area available to
me, except when my rectangle is not the right one for the picture that day. I don't print with black borders any more in any case,
but I do leave a half-inch or so of relief between the edge of the mounted print and the overmat. That sets the image off nicely,
in my opinion.