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View Full Version : anyone print 4x5 negatives with a black border?



ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 09:44
hi, I want to print the above at sizes larger than contact prints with a black border ("full-frame"). Is it possible to print a 4x5 negative on an old 4x5 Beseler enlarger which I use to print them at maybe 8x10 prints? Or do I have to move up to a 5x7 enlarger? Is it my enlarger lens length on my 4x5 enlarger that is too short? Also, can I modify my 4x5 enlarger to get a black border on prints?
(please help me with this, if it has been discussed include links)
thank you
d david y

Jim Noel
29-Feb-2016, 09:48
The black border is formed on the easel,not in the enlarger. You don't need a 5x7 enlarger.

mdarnton
29-Feb-2016, 09:53
If you're referring to 35mm full frame plus style then you need a neg carrier with a hole larger than the neg, and this implies that it needs to be glass. I rigged one up for myself from two pieces of glass, with a black masking tape hinge at the back, and on the inside of the bottom piece a black masking taped area to contain the negative, then I covered the rest of the glass on the outside with tape to mask off stray light. You will have to figure out where to put the negative to register it properly with the center of the lens, and if you don't use anti-newton ring glass on the top, you may or may not have newton ring problems. . . . I didn't.

On my Omega D2 I arranged it so that when the carrier was pushed all the way to the back the neg was centered, front to back. I don't remember how I'd do that with a Beseler--maybe you will need a strip of something on the bottom to locate the carrier.

Some glass carriers may do the job, also. I don't remember if the Omega glass carrier was oversize or not.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 09:54
hi Jim, when my enlarger is at it's highest height with my longest enlarging lens on my 4x5 enlarger the projected image onto the baseboard is cut-off on the corners, all four. My goal is to get a projected negative image that I can print without the corners cut-off. (printed with a visible border around it)

Jon Shiu
29-Feb-2016, 09:55
you can make a negative carrier from sheet of glass and then mask off the edges with black card/tape

Jon

Oren Grad
29-Feb-2016, 09:56
You need two things to be able to do that: a glass-sandwich negative carrier with an opening large enough to show the entire sheet of film including the edges, and an enlarger head that is designed to illuminate 4x5" plus a bit, rather than being squeezed down to exactly 96x120mm.

That's easiest with a 5x7 enlarger, which will obviously have enough coverage and then some, but some 4x5 enlargers will work, too. I don't know about your Beseler.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 10:00
hi mdarnton
I made a glass-negative-carrier similar to yours without anti newton glass. I checked the top of the enlarging head to see if the corners of the 4x5 negative "cleared" the "hole" (sorry if not the right term") where the negative goes and the corners of the negative do "clear" it with no cutting off the them. puzzled? may have to look for an Omega 4x5 enlarger to print full-frame?

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 10:02
Is my enlarger lens at 135mm too short to print full frame? Would a 150mm possibly work?

Dan O'Farrell
29-Feb-2016, 10:51
You are printing 4X5 negatives, using a 4X5 (old) Beseler enlarger, and you are using a 135mm lens, right?
The corners of the image are "cut off", right?
It sounds to me that you have the lens stage adjusted for a shorter lens.

If you look on the upper-right side of your lens stage, you should see a sliding scale,
which is adjusted by raising or lowering the upper bellows, and there should be a scale marker to indicate negative size (35mm to 4X5 in.)

There should be a knob on the LEFT side of the upper lens-stage, which will adjust the upper bellows; also, note that there is a smaller knob inward from the adjustment knob,
which locks the shaft. You will want to make sure that the shaft is free to rotate.

Try adjusting the upper bellows stretched upward, to its shorter (compressed) extent; this should be reflected on the scale opposite, to the 4X5 mark, which is at the bottom of the scale.

Try that, and see whether the corners of your projected image are now clearly illuminated.

Dan

DG 3313
29-Feb-2016, 10:53
I am playing with an 8x10 neg that was overexposed in the camera to wash out the image area but keep the reveal clear without fogging it.

After I processed the neg...I have a black image area that blocks the light falling on the paper except the reveal. I contact print this and then on another enlarger....I expose my print on the same paper. The reveal area is already black so, it won't show anything from the second exposure.

Still playing with it and not quite right yet.

Don

Jim Noel
29-Feb-2016, 10:59
You are printing 4X5 negatives, using a 4X5 (old) Beseler enlarger, and you are using a 135mm lens, right?
The corners of the image are "cut off", right?
It sounds to me that you have the lens stage adjusted for a shorter lens.

If you look on the upper-right side of your lens stage, you should see a sliding scale,
which is adjusted by raising or lowering the upper bellows, and there should be a scale marker to indicate negative size (35mm to 4X5 in.)

There should be a knob on the LEFT side of the upper lens-stage, which will adjust the upper bellows; also, note that there is a smaller knob inward from the adjustment knob,
which locks the shaft. You will want to make sure that the shaft is free to rotate.

Try adjusting the upper bellows stretched upward, to its shorter (compressed) extent; this should be reflected on the scale opposite, to the 4X5 mark, which is at the bottom of the scale.

Try that, and see whether the corners of your projected image are now clearly illuminated.

Dan

A good complete answer. I would add that several popular enlarging lenses will cut off the corners. At the college we went to 150mm lenses to prevent the problem.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 11:03
hi Dan
yes the Beseler is an old MCRX45 with a 135mm enlarger lens and the final enlarged printed negatives larger than "contact-prints" e.g. 8x10 images have corners of the negative on the print cut off. (the sliding scale is set to 4x5 for the enlarger head but still cuts of the negative corners, frustating).
the Durst1200 may be able to print such prints without cut-off corners.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 11:05
hi Jim
what brand enlarger was it? > d david y

Dan O'Farrell
29-Feb-2016, 11:11
Yep, must be the lens.

Dan

mdarnton
29-Feb-2016, 11:14
I'm betting that it's the condensors (or the negative stage). Even with them at the "proper" location, you may want to mess around with focusing them and see if you can find a better position than "proper" There really should not be a problem with the lens--no lens should cut off right at the corner of the neg! The other possibility, and I don't know Beseler, is that one of the plates directly above or below the carrier may need to be filed out a little in the corners to expose the whole neg at the corners. That might be the first thing to check.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 11:29
hi mdarnton
by plates directly above or below the carrier; I use a homemade glass negative carrier with tape as a hinge. should i file the interior of the head where the "hole" of the cone of light passes through that the negative carrier sits atop?

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 12:11
I just double checked my enlarger lens on the 4x5 and it is a 150mm:
anyone use a lens longer than 150?

mdarnton
29-Feb-2016, 13:28
I'm still betting it's something to do with the condensers.

Neal Chaves
29-Feb-2016, 13:39
I too wanted that full frame plus the "rebate area" look. I was able to do it on a self-built 10X10 enlarger. What I did not like was they way the edges of the frame were rendered. Unlike with a contact print, enlarger light "pipes" through the film base of the negative.

Greg
29-Feb-2016, 13:45
I believe a Kostiner 11x14 Reverse Border Printer easel is what you are looking for.
For reference only, there is one currently on EBay at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kostiner-11x14-Reverse-Border-Printer-easel-RB14-LAST-ONE-/291673733258?hash=item43e91bf88a:g:cwEAAOSwT~9Whe5U
Never used one but years ago talked to another photographer who loved using this easel.

Winger
29-Feb-2016, 15:19
I have a Beseler MX45 and a 150mm lens. I tested to see what happens if I tried to get space around the outside after I read this earlier. My usual negative carrier is a glass one, regular Beseler. It barely lets me get to the inner edge of the rebate. I put a negative between pieces of glass to see what happens and there's only room around the image to get a little bit of black around it. The light is in a circle that almost touches the corners of the image (not quite, but really close). The image was about 9" by 11 1/4" because I didn't move the head from where it was - I'd figure it wouldn't be much different at different sizes. The condenser bellows is as far down as possible.
While mine does not cut off any IMAGE corners, it does make it difficult to put a black border around an image. If that's how the OP's is, I'd figure this is more by design than the enlarger being messed up. They optimized the light path to get the image to be fully lit, but without extraneous light.

Jac@stafford.net
29-Feb-2016, 15:29
When I was into black borders, I was also a steel worker and a buddy cut a beautiful piece of 1/4" steel (to exact dimensions I have forgotten.) I use a Saunders easel. I would expose for the print, place the steel plate between the blades, lift up the blades and expose by room light (just a switch on the bench).

Of course, you could try printing on black paper. :)

Sirius Glass
29-Feb-2016, 16:14
I would use a black mat with a white or off-white over mat.

ic-racer
29-Feb-2016, 16:40
Best way is to use a 5x7 or larger enlarger. Most large format enlargers I have used provide sufficient illumination for the area inside the rebate, but outside and the film edge can be difficult to print. The longer your enlarging lens the better chance of it working.

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 17:09
hi mdarnton
my condensor head is... too low? too high? not properly set-up?
could be true. but I have no examples to see if head is correctly set up.
Would a different head lower or higher create a different angle of light?

ahotflash
29-Feb-2016, 17:34
if I removed the two bellows it would free-up straighter light path... has anyone ever taken their bellows off an enlarger? or somehow lower the head so it would be closer to the negative.