Info wanted on a Protar lens and a Dagor? formula lens

[Greg]

In the 1990s I acquired two lenses for my 11x14. Back then the switch from film to digital was in full swing and bought these two lenses for next to nothing, right time, right place, plus both shutters not working (S K Grimes fixed that).

14 inch f/7.7 Goerz Double Anastigmat Series III No. 528XXX mounted in a No 4 ACME shutter. Optic seem to be coated. A have always assumed that this is a Dagor formula optic possibly pre-dating a Dagor labeled optic maybe? Is this a convertible lens even though not marked as such?

12 3/4 inch f/7.7 Bausch & Lomb Protar Series VII mounted in a N0 5 Universal shutter. Uncoated optics. Convertible with aperture scales marked 18 7/8 inch f/12.5 (No. 2642XXX) and 27" f/12.5. (No. 26117XXX).

Was asked the other day how old the lenses were and I realized I had no idea. Also is there anything special about these lenses?

thanks in advance for any info.....

[Dan Fromm]

Interesting. With Goerz lenses English text and focal length in inches are taken to mean Goerz American, incomplete serial number list here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/classic-experts.html Acme shutter is consistent with US-made lens.

Doppelanastigmat Serie III (note the spellings) means early Dagor made in Germany. I've always thought that Goerz switched to Dagor before Goerz American was founded, could be mistaken. Interestingly, either way 528xxx means early 1920s (German chronology from P-H Pont) and by then the lenses should all have been badged Dagor.

Dagors were sold as convertibles.

There's no reliable B&L chronologies. Klaus Schmidt's list is purest nonsense.

Special? In their day Dagors and Protars had better contrast and transmission than other design types. Nowadays Dagors are somewhat cult lenses. Since Dagor types from other makers aren't cult lenses I conclude that Dagors aren't very special. That or ignorance rules.

[IanG]

Like Dan says with that serial number it should be marked Dagor, I've just bought a Goerz Berlin 120mm f6,8 and it's marked "Doppel-Anastigmat Serie III Dagor" i's Compound and lens serial numbers indicate it was made in 1913,

C.P. Goerz two sons William & Otto were selling Goerz lenses in the US 1895-99 before they set up manufacture in 1899 and becoming Goerz American Optical Co in 1905. So it could be a serial number pre-dating the Goerz AM Opt Co, The fact that it's in a #4 shutter probably means after 1902 when the Compond shutters were introduce, the Illex shutters are later 1910 onwards. The addition of the name Dagor is from 1904 so as Dan says predates the founding of Goerz AM Opt Co, and before WWII they were usually just marked as Goerz Dagor.

Depending on the age of the shutter it's quite possible it was initially a barrel lens and then later the cells put in a shutter, it may well be coated the original owner of my 12" Dagor had it coated shortly after WWII.

You should try your Dagor, the second owner of mine had never used it, said it was old and had separation, it had come with the Agfa Ansco 10x8 camera and he thought it had little value. It needed a good clean, it was just years of dirt built up at the edges not separation, in use it's an excellent lens, sharp and contrasty as is my 120mm un-coated Dagor.

I agree with Dan about the cult thing, I wouldn't pay high prices for old lenses but I think I was rather surprised at just how good Dagors are even with older pre-WWII & pre-WWI versions.

Ian

[John Layton]

The old 14 inch optic which seems to be coated - possibly was (much more recently of course), or perhaps it has some surface oxidation - which may actually (or so I've heard may times) exhibit some of the same properties as a factory coating!

[David Lindquist]

Is the full number 528155? That is the U.S. Patent number for the Dagor. Is there another number then that could be the serial number? Perhaps on the rear cell? According to _Photographic Optics_, Allen Greenleaf, 1950, the Doppel Anastigmat Series III was renamed the Dagor in 1904.

I should have gone out to the darkroom and looked at my seven inch lens of similar vintage. On the front bezel is engraved "GOERZ DOUBLE-ANASTIGMAT U.S. PATENT No 528155 SERIES III No 2 FOC. 7 IN No 150902" The serial number 150902 is also engraved on the bezel of the rear cell.
David

[IanG]

Is the full number 528155? That is the U.S. Patent number for the Dagor. Is there another number then that could be the serial number? Perhaps on the rear cell? According to _Photographic Optics_, Allen Greenleaf, 1950, the Doppel Anastigmat Series III was renamed the Dagor in 1904.

I should have gone out to the darkroom and looked at my seven inch lens of similar vintage. On the front bezel is engraved "GOERZ DOUBLE-ANASTIGMAT U.S. PATENT No 528155 SERIES III No 2 FOC. 7 IN No 150902" The serial number 150902 is also engraved on the bezel of the rear cell.
David

That would make more sense :D

However it wasn't a really renaming with Goerz (Berlin) lenses as they initially just added Dagor so they were marked Doppel Anastigmat Serie III Dagor, and as Dan pointed out it's "Serie" rather than Series. Goerz Am Opt may have fully shortened the name earlier though. It's generally forgotten that Goerz in New York completely severed ties with Goerz, Berlin as a result of WWI, the US company supplying the US armed forces, William & Otto (C.P. Goerz sons) were by then US citizens, and their father Carl in Berlin was supplying the German army.

Ian

[Greg]

Is the full number 528155? That is the U.S. Patent number for the Dagor. Is there another number then that could be the serial number? Perhaps on the rear cell? According to _Photographic Optics_, Allen Greenleaf, 1950, the Doppel Anastigmat Series III was renamed the Dagor in 1904.

You are right, U S Pat No is 528155. Serial No is 709XX

[IanG]

That SN fit's my 1002-4 period exactly :D

Ian

[IanG]

That SN fit's my 1002-4 period exactly :D

Ian

1902-4 sorry :)

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

If the serial number is correct the lens has to have been reshuttered. Ilex was founded in 1910 and the Acme shutter wasn't their first product. See http://www.nwmangum.com/Kodak/Rochester.html

[Luis-F-S]

Dan, thanks for the link to the great article on the Rochester NY lens and camera companies. It was very informative. L