Portrait Lens Question

[hugosharp]

Hi All,

First post, just getting into LF (8x10) photography. As a way of learning i'm going to shoot a series in the style of Avedon's In the American West (ie crisp portraits. Some nice bokeh if needed though not soft focus images like Paolo Roveri). I've searched a lot and found that he shot it with a 360mm Symmar-S. I was going to just get one of these on ebay and get shooting but after much research i'm now considering putting my money into a 360mm Tessar instead. My question is therefore, what should i be expecting from each lens? Obviously there are many variables but should i be pulling my hair out or are either going to suits my needs when trying to get crisp portraits. For that matter would any "big 4" 360 get me in the ball park (eg Nikon, Fuji, Shneider, Rodenstock)?

[BrianShaw]

Either should suit your needs quite well.

[Noah A]

When I was shooting 8x10 I had a 360 Symmar S. It was a great portrait lens, very sharp and the images had a great look. I'm sure any of the 360 plasmats would do the job just fine. But the Symmar S seems like a great option.

I'd be more concerned about the condition of the shutter. Since all of the 360 plasmats will be great for your needs, you might buy whichever one comes with the newest shutter.

When I bought mine on Ebay, I wasn't quite prepared for how large it was going to be!

[DrTang]

Lets not forget the 14" Commercial Ektar

[Peter De Smidt]

Nor the 420mm Fujinon L.

[Jim Galli]

Per your description, I'd look for a large Marge earlier Symmar in the Compound 4 that was f5.6 Once upon a time I had an Osaka f6.3 14" Tessar and it impressed me with how sharp and lovely the images were. Pretty hard to go wrong with your stated parameters. Get a big lens and go make pictures. Lots to learn about lighting etc. but your lens isn't going to be a huge player one way or another. Leave the 'big guns' and 'silver bullet' lenses alone. A gold dot Dagor won't help.

[Robert Kalman]

Lets not forget the 14" Commercial Ektar

+1

[Ari]

Many fine lenses to choose from, including the 14" CE, but the OP is after a different look that what the CE imparts.
I remember reading that Avedon used a Fuji-W 360 f6.3 for the American West series, but I may be mis-remembering that fact.
In any case, yes, you should be just fine with any lenses from the Big 4, if that's the kind of look you're after.

[hugosharp]

Many thanks Jim. Sound advice for sure.

[hugosharp]

Thanks Ari, I had read that he used a Fuji as well but wasn't sure if it was a back-up or not to the Symmar. Thanks for putting my mind (and $) at ease.

[hugosharp]

Thanks Noah. Much appreciated.

[Trimitsis]

My experience with the Fuji 360 is that it is noticeably soft if you shoot with a large aperture. By f16 or f22 it gets very nice. I tend to shoot portraits close to wide open, and I found that my Schneider Apo-Symmar 360 was much sharper than the Fuji at large apertures. Depending on the look you're going for, one or the other may be preferable.

[Luis-F-S]

Hi All,

First post, just getting into LF (8x10) photography. As a way of learning i'm going to shoot a series in the style of Avedon's In the American West (ie crisp portraits. Some nice bokeh if needed though not soft focus images like Paolo Roveri). I've searched a lot and found that he shot it with a 360mm Symmar-S. I was going to just get one of these on ebay and get shooting but after much research i'm now considering putting my money into a 360mm Tessar instead. My question is therefore, what should i be expecting from each lens? Obviously there are many variables but should i be pulling my hair out or are either going to suits my needs when trying to get crisp portraits. For that matter would any "big 4" 360 get me in the ball park (eg Nikon, Fuji, Shneider, Rodenstock)?

Pretty much yup. Of the two dozen or so LF lenses I own, the only 14" lens I have is a Gold Dot Dagor that I bought new in 1987. Probably my least used focal length. L

[hugosharp]

Thanks Luis. Why is it the least used length? And are you shooting portraits? Thanks

[Luis-F-S]

Thanks Luis. Why is it the least used length? And are you shooting portraits? Thanks

Frankly, for 8x10 I think a 12" is the most useful focal length. I typically bring the 12" Dagor instead of the 14". A 14" plasmat is a BEAST, but you'll figure that out. I have two 12" Dagors as well as a 12" Artar. You might also consider a 14-16.5" Artar. Nice small size considering and if you don't stop down much it won't be razor sharp, or stop down to f22 to 45 if you want more sharpness & DF. Whatever you get, make sure it's in a recent shutter (ie Copal) or certainly nothing older than an Ilex shutter, and if an Ilex plan on having it serviced. L

[mdarnton]

I shoot portraits on 8x10. You can use a 12" in some circumstances, but not as a usual lens, in my opinion. It's OK if the subject is small in the frame, and in one plane, but not close, or when something is sticking out towards the camera. Some people would include noses relative to ears as "something sticking out", others think that kind of distortion is OK. I don't. My usual lens is a 36cm Heliar on 8x10, or 30cm tessar-type on 5x7. If you're curious, I think nearly every shot in my LF Flickr page, which is mostly portraits, is labeled as to format and focal length

I don't care for plasmats, in general, but if you're replicating Avedon, that's probably what you need to have, if for no other reason than to feel like you're doing it right. Likewise for the focal length; use what he used.

[Tim Meisburger]

I agree with Michael. If you are going after that Avedon look, use a plasmat. Heliars and tessars are wonderful portrait lenses with their own look, and I would not associate that with Avedon. But I have to admit that I shoot neither stopped down, and if you are shooting outdoors in the west you will have a lot of light so could stop down considerably, and maybe then a tessar looks like a plasmat? Hell, I don't know...

[mdarnton]

Stop them down enough, and they all look like pinholes. :-)
Tim's probably right: stop them down to f22, and who could tell the difference?

[SergeiR]

Jim, IMHO, nailed it.

There is no silver bullet. Whole Avedon's series are more about light and awesome printer than about lens. Grab something, stop it to f22 and shoot. As long as it is relatively sharp - you will be fine.
Symmar-S in 360 is frantastic sharp plasmat that will absolutely work.

[hugosharp]

Jim, IMHO, nailed it.

There is no silver bullet. Whole Avedon's series are more about light and awesome printer than about lens. Grab something, stop it to f22 and shoot. As long as it is relatively sharp - you will be fine.
Symmar-S in 360 is frantastic sharp plasmat that will absolutely work.

Ok brilliant. Thanks all for the feedback. Helps immensity. Does lead to the question though of what about his printing was so good?!

[Louis Pacilla]

Ok brilliant. Thanks all for the feedback. Helps immensity. Does lead to the question though of what about his printing was so good?!

I don't believe Avedon did his own printing. I'm sure he had 'his' printer and worked closely w/ him/her so Rich got the look he was after.

[SergeiR]

Ok brilliant. Thanks all for the feedback. Helps immensity. Does lead to the question though of what about his printing was so good?!

Its full of dodge/burning and sharpening executed extremely well. If you search around you will find some correction notes on those portraits. Its pretty intense :)

UPD: here.. googled

http://aphelis.net/avedons-instructions/

[hugosharp]

Thanks very much everyone. I have a follow-on question. So there are numerous plasmats on ebay as just lens elements. I have a suitable copal shutter (3) on hand (with abort lens in it). What is the hassle factor to purchase lens elements and use them on the copal i have? I'll caveat by saying that the copsl has the wrong aperture scale screw over the original (I'm going to see what's under it) and that there is a spacer ring in use currently (are these lens specific?).

Many thanks.

[jnantz]

hi hugosharp

have you seen this thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?63200-A-discovery-Dagor-type-G-Claron-s-as-the-ultimate-Casket-Set&highlight=ultimate%20casket

it might offer you some suggestions about what cells to buy ..

good luck
john

[hugosharp]

Thanks very much John.