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Xipho
18-Feb-2016, 07:07
Hello,

I try to get some information about the Numbering System of Ica (predecessor of zeiss Ikon from 1909 to 1926). With the merger of 4 companies to Ica in 1909 they started the "classic Zeiss ikon" number System with letter an number.
With the letter you can date the camera, as we are used in the Zeiss Ikon Cameras.

Does anyone know if they started in 1909 with the letter "A" ?

I have a Ica Plalmos with a 1914 dated Tessar, so the cameras should also be about 1913/14/15
It has the letter "C"

Do you have some dated (maybe my the lens) Ica-Cameras where we could collect the letters here... Also letters of early Zeiss Ikon Cameras would help!

Maybe we can get some light in it. thanks!

Xipho
18-Feb-2016, 11:42
Numbers... there is not edit function!!!
Collecting:

I have a ICA Ideal 6x9 with lens Tessar and compur both 1918: The camera has a "H" number

My Ernemann Heag IV from 1926 (labeled Ernemann ans Zeiss Ikon) still has a ernemann number (1,33 Mio...)

Steven Tribe
18-Feb-2016, 14:24
This is a good idea but the serial numbers will include non-large format cameras (under 9x12cm)?

Xipho
18-Feb-2016, 15:09
This is a good idea but the serial numbers will include non-large format cameras (under 9x12cm)?

He said Jehova....:rolleyes:

Companies that also made cameras with formats below 4x5 should be excluded out of this forum!

In the linhof serial number thread the questions about the small linhof are answered too...

Oren Grad
18-Feb-2016, 15:13
If this is primarily a discussion about serial numbers for small/medium format cameras it can be carried on in the Lounge.

Xipho
19-Feb-2016, 01:04
it is not, Ica made a lot of 9x12 cameras between 1909 and 1926...

If you ike we can only collect the Serial numbers of 9x12 cameras, serves the same purpose to get some valid informations out of the Serial numbers.

Steven Tribe
19-Feb-2016, 01:46
Serial numbers on smaller formats could sent to you as a PM? You could make them anonymous and post them here as "ICA" data. Lens/shutters are more rarely changed on smaller folders so the compur numbers would be more reliable.

Oren Grad
19-Feb-2016, 08:34
It would be fine if you keep the thread in the main section focused on 9x12 so that those who are interested specifically in LF don't have to wade through lots of unrelated information. You're welcome to create a companion thread for the smaller formats in the Lounge, with a link from this thread, so that those interested in the whole set for historical or user reasons can easily find the rest of the information.

IanG
19-Feb-2016, 09:07
Do the numbers start with ICA or earlier with Huttig ?

You need to collect serial numbers of all formats/types of ICA cameras ideally to build up a true picture with the lens and shutter serial numbers s as well, so Oren's suggestion is the best option. It won't help that many of the larger cameras were shipped with no lens fitted and the lens of choice was fitted by the dealer or distributor. Lens and shutter serial numbers can vary by a couple of years, sometimes longer with less common lenses.

Ian

Xipho
20-Feb-2016, 00:26
it is useless anyway, as no one has contributed any numbers.... Only dicusssion about formats...

I will try to collect some numbers on apug, I have more hope there.

The Ica cameras were sold with lenses, there are catalogues in the internet. certainly the compur and lens number can vary by one or two years because of stock...
But with the common tessar on Ica I doubt they had such a large stock....

IanG
20-Feb-2016, 04:47
I think part of the problem is the number of cameras actually manufactured by the various German companies before WWII and then more importantly before the merger to form Zeiss Ikon, it's not high..

As a number of companies used Zeiss lenses and we know from the Serial numbers roughly how many lenses were made each year it seems quite obvious the companies weren't making huge numbers of cameras, this is also corroborated by the number of shutters sold by Compur and many were exported.

The German photographic industry was struggling after WWI with far too many companies competing for what little business there was. Look at the number of lenses Voightlander made each year between the wars it's low until after the Nazi's came into power and the German economy grew.

If we assume post WW! to the formation of Zeiss Ikon that Compur made approx 350,000 shutters, Zeiss 405,000 lenses, Voigtlander 100,000 (according to the serial numbers) we see things in a different perspective. That's a rough average of 50,000 Zeiss lenses a year in that period and with many companies using their lenses so I guess that we can think in terms of 10,000 ICA camera a year probably less as they were smaller than Voigtlander. Then look how many models ICA made.

So your problem is that few of us on the Forums (here and APUG) will actually own an ICA camera, many of us will own pre WWII Zeiss Ikons because production increased dramatically in the 1930's.

Ian

Xipho
20-Feb-2016, 05:53
thank you for your numbers an thoughts... Indeed the Zeiss numbers are valuable as we the the number of lenses per year...

But I think the Zeiss lenese were for the better cmaeras, the huge numbers of primitive box cameras had simpl lenses.. But those cameras also will add to serial numbers... And al ot of cameras had other shutters, IBSOR etc....

So I think the ICA production numbers are higher. From 1909-1926 Zeiss hat about 550000 lenses made, and there are a lot of non-Zeiss esp on the cheaper Icas...
Compur made 450000 shutters in this period of time.

Maybe there were 500000 Icas in sum, as a guess... I will try to find better sources.

If we look at the numbering system, Letter xxxxx means, you can have 100000 Cameras per Letter max....
When I say 1913 was C (from my Palmos) and 1918 was H (Ideal), there woulf be two ways:

You fill up any letter to 100000 cameras, that woulf mean they would have had approx 100000 Cameras per Year,
or they used any letter only for one year, but then there would be no high numbers...
I know a H50xxxx Palmos, so in 1918 they would have had at least 50000 cameras per year...

I think they filled up...

If I go on the letters from 1918 (H) to 1932 (U) that would fit to approx 100000 cameras a year in average.
As the Zeiss Ikon numbers after 1926 are higher, sowe sould have far less than 100000 Icas per year before 1926!
Important would be one number of a 1926 camera...

From 1932 U ..Z was reached in 1935 (6 letters in 3 years) (Contax serial numbers source)

So maybe Ica made 20000-30000 a year, then the merger letter would be (guessed) J-K ?????

IanG
20-Feb-2016, 08:22
When I came up with that figure of approx 10,000 cameras a year I took into account the number of companies using Zeiss lenses in that period, KW, Ihagee, Contessa Nettel. Certo, Kodak as well as a few others besides ICA, and that they were also selling barrel lenses for large format camera, and cine lenses. Also I allowed for cheaper lenses and shutters. Somewhere I have the figure of 200 cameras a week being quite significant in the early 1920's and we forget that in real terms cameras were far more expensive than today or even the 1930's when increased mechanisation and scale of production reduced unit costs.

One of the reasons for Zeiss wanting to amalgamate ICA with other manufacturers to form Zeiss Ikon was to reduce manufacturing costs and gain greater efficiency. Most of the German companies were barely viable in the 20's, quite a number folded.

Ian

Xipho
21-Feb-2016, 04:11
The Ica Ideal 9x12 Nr K89xxx has a 1926 Tessar and no ZI markings.
So high K ist still pre Merger...

thanks to Ron for the data!

(my oldest ZI number is a "N" camera)