xtol with photoflo

[ryanmills]

I use photoflo in my hc-110 and prewash when I develop tri-x 320 with no issues. I use a pretty significant amount (cap full). However adding photoflo to xtol clouded it, anyone know if its safe to use photoflo in xtol?

[Sirius Glass]

There is no reason to use PhotoFlo in XTOL. Use PhotoFlo after the film has been developed and washed.

[Kirk Gittings]

I'm assuming you are using it in tray developing with HC110 and Tri-x to make the film more slippery? I used to do the same with success but stopped when someone told me it wasn't recommended by Kodak. I never figured out why or why I took it as gospel. every once in awhile I would remember and tell myself that I should research it but never did.

[Ken Lee]

I use a pretty significant amount (cap full).

PhotoFlo is very concentrated. Ordinarily, a few drops is enough to break the surface tension in a liter of water.

[ryanmills]

PhotoFlo is very concentrated. Ordinarily, a few drops is enough to break the surface tension in a liter of water.

True, but im not using it for that. Get enough in there and pulling with hc-110 gives a rather pleasing change in the curve. Played with it quite a bit. Thats why i was currious to experiment with it in xtol.





I'm assuming you are using it in tray developing with HC110 and Tri-x to make the film more slippery? I used to do the same with success but stopped when someone told me it wasn't recommended by Kodak. I never figured out why or why I took it as gospel. every once in awhile I would remember and tell myself that I should research it but never did.


I have only used it with tri-x 320 and I did a lot of testing with 4x5. It helps a lot to keep them from sticking when your doing a lot at once but if you get the right amount in there it effects devlopment in a way that really digs into the shadows. Its made quite a difference for me and i really like the look. I know many years ago it was popular with the teacher at the San Francisco Art Institute and its likely where Jock Sturges learned it and started using it. He recomended it to me and I have stuck with it since. I found HC-110 is trash for pushing thou and i like to use Xtol, got me to wondering how it would effect it but since its a much different developing agent i was not sure. I was hoping someone else had experimented with it and I can just avoid the "pointless its not for that debates".

[Ken Lee]

it effects devlopment in a way that really digs into the shadows.

Are you suggesting that with a lot of wetting agent, the developer becomes compensating ? Do you also increase development time ?

Have you done any side-by-side comparisons ? I for one would be interested to see them.

[Kevin Crisp]

My father was born in 1914.

[Taija71A]

...Have you done any side-by-side comparisons? I for one would be interested to see them.

+1.

[Mark Sampson]

When I developed sheet film in trays, I used a pre-soak tray of a 1% Kodalk solution. That kept the sheets (up to 12 4x5s) from sticking together. I could see no other effect on my negatives. I've never heard of putting Photo-Flo in the developer but if it works, fine. -Now that I think of it, c.1978 I had a job in a custom lab, developing roll film in stainless Nikor tanks. The reels of developed film were dropped into a 2-gal. tank of Photo-Flo 200 as the final step. After the film was hung up to dry, the reels were put back in the wash tank and 'purged' for 10 minutes in 100F running water, to 'avoid Photo-Flo contamination' of the developer (D-76 1:1) in the next run. I was inexperienced, and the lab had been successful for many years, so there must have been a good reason for it\end of ramble\.

[Michael R]

I think the only reasonable answer to OPs questions is try it and see. Experiment on some test negatives and you have nothing to lose.

I can't think of a mechanism by which the addition of Photo Flo to a developer would cause it to "compensate". I'm not saying it is impossible, but a careful sensitometric comparison would have to be made in order to say either way. Further, if there is an effect on HC-110, we cannot necessarily extrapolate to XTOL (or different films).

Generally speaking, addition of a wetting agent to the developer is not recommended (Kodak, Ilford). For one thing, many current emulsions already include surfactants. Depending on the film and developer, adding Photo Flo (or any other wetting agent) would be superfluous at best, or could cause excessive foaming (particularly in tanks).

There are some circumstances under which the use of Photo Flo prior to its normal place in the final soak (B&W processing) may help. One example would be divided development processes where development is exceedingly quick once the film comes into contact with the alkali, which means uniformity is difficult to control. In this case, depending on how the process is carried out, film format etc., a small amount of additional wetting agent in solution A may (or may not) promote even wetting, which could improve uniformity.

[Duolab123]

My first thought is that the cloudy appearance may just be a solubility issue. As anyone that has used XTOL there's one helluva lot of powder to dissolve. I once tried mixing XTOL with "softened " hard water. It was so loaded with sodium carbonate from the softener that nothing would dissolve. If you are already using demineralized or distilled water I don't know what to tell you.
Water is a weird molecule, expands when it gets cold, polar, hydrogen bonding etc. You might try adding a shot of 70% isopropyl alcohol (pure no glycerin ), I'm perfectly serious. Something to increase the solubility. On second thought buy a pint of Jack Daniels, put a shot of that in, if it doesn't work you won't have wasted your money on a bottle of rubbing alcohol
Good luck, best regards Mike

[Michael Cienfuegos]

My first thought is that the cloudy appearance may just be a solubility issue. As anyone that has used XTOL there's one helluva lot of powder to dissolve. I once tried mixing XTOL with "softened " hard water. It was so loaded with sodium carbonate from the softener that nothing would dissolve. If you are already using demineralized or distilled water I don't know what to tell you.
Water is a weird molecule, expands when it gets cold, polar, hydrogen bonding etc. You might try adding a shot of 70% isopropyl alcohol (pure no glycerin ), I'm perfectly serious. Something to increase the solubility. On second thought buy a pint of Jack Daniels, put a shot of that in, if it doesn't work you won't have wasted your money on a bottle of rubbing alcohol
Good luck, best regards Mike

Just get a half-pine of Everclear. No use wasting good Jack in developer.

m

[Willie]

I use photoflo in my hc-110 and prewash when I develop tri-x 320 with no issues. I use a pretty significant amount (cap full). However adding photoflo to xtol clouded it, anyone know if its safe to use photoflo in xtol?

Have you tried developing a sheet or two with the cloudy developer? May be just fine for development. The only way to know is to try a sheet or a few and see.

Let us know how it comes out. Never turn down something that can improve the final results.

[Jim Noel]

When I developed sheet film in trays, I used a pre-soak tray of a 1% Kodalk solution. That kept the sheets (up to 12 4x5s) from sticking together. I could see no other effect on my negatives. I've never heard of putting Photo-Flo in the developer but if it works, fine. -Now that I think of it, c.1978 I had a job in a custom lab, developing roll film in stainless Nikor tanks. The reels of developed film were dropped into a 2-gal. tank of Photo-Flo 200 as the final step. After the film was hung up to dry, the reels were put back in the wash tank and 'purged' for 10 minutes in 100F running water, to 'avoid Photo-Flo contamination' of the developer (D-76 1:1) in the next run. I was inexperienced, and the lab had been successful for many years, so there must have been a good reason for it\end of ramble\.

Photo Flo becomes a catalyst when concentrated sufficiently. The reason the company you worked for cleansed the SS reels after they were in PhotoFlo was to eliminate over-development along the edges of the film. How do I know this? When I first began teaching at the college they were having trouble with students films being overdeveloped along he edges. I took the reels home and ran them through the dishwasher. Students were instructed to remove film from the reels prior to the use of PF, and then we switched to a different surfactant. The problem disappeared.
This may also account for some people adding it to developer to increase shadow detail. I emphasize MAY.

[Kirk Gittings]

Jim, Same experience here with the SS reels at my school.

[Mark Sampson]

Jim, that explanation makes sense. I did a lot of things at that lab, most of which had exact procedures posted, even down to how to open the foil packet of D-76. Shoveling snow off the flat roof, and keeping the lab owners' Austin-Healeys running were a few of the things that did not. Good experience and good training, all of it, even if I never found out the 'why' of some things, or forgot in the intervening 37 years.

[ryanmills]

I have been developing film and printing long before your father was born. If you have been reading the threads for years and have discussed various thing that can be done, you gain something called experience. You might try doing some research and gaining some experience instead of taking cheap shots at people.

For someone who must be around 110 years old I would have expected your knowledge to be a bit higher. "There is no reason to use PhotoFlo in XTOL.", well yes, yes there is actually. Perhaps it does not work the same as other developers but still, there is a reason. I'm here to get the anwser to my question, not debate with someone who does not understand what im doing. A quick recap, I asked a question, you ignored it and told me thats not what its for. I learned it from someone sucessful enough it bought him a rather nice little place on the ocean in the south of france. Hence, you got mocked. Good day sir.





Are you suggesting that with a lot of wetting agent, the developer becomes compensating ? Do you also increase development time ?

Have you done any side-by-side comparisons ? I for one would be interested to see them.


Yes and yes and yes. To some degree, a small amount did nothing but did keep them from sticking. Get enough in there and it does start to effect development. He described it to me "as helping to dig into the shadows". When he first told me I never tried it out of fear but honestly every bit of advice he has given has been perfect so I tried it. I did some side by side test since he shots 8x10 and its different volumes. It did require me to add 30 seconds to get the same density. However doing the same thing with 8x10 and slightly less photoflo for the volume I had to take off the 30 seconds. That factors likely due to agitation changes. I do still have the negs but I dont have them labeled, I would have to guess just by looking at the scans what was what. I could guess at whats happening but really I only know that it works.

I was tempted to just try it with xtol but I would have to do at least 10 sheets to match what I would do normally and at $90 a try I just cant afford it.

This is an old trick that does not seem popular anymore, never heard why thou. Its might just not be the look might not be for everyone. I have only tested it with tri-x 320 in HC110 and I over exposed my tri-x a lot. I also shoot portraits, if your a zone system shooter doing landscapes you would likely not like it.

[Bruce Watson]

I use photoflo in my hc-110 and prewash when I develop tri-x 320 with no issues. I use a pretty significant amount (cap full). However adding photoflo to xtol clouded it, anyone know if its safe to use photoflo in xtol?

You're the kid who used to mix all kinds of things together in high school chemistry, yes? The one who shut down the school one day by generating a cloud of chlorine gas? Yeah, that *was* you wasn't it?

Well I'm curious. Why is it OK to do this so long as the photoflow doesn't turn the developer cloudy? What, exactly, does cloudy have to do with it?

If it works for you in HC110, I say give it a try with XTOL. What have you got to loose? Besides a single sheet of film that is, and some XTOL? Tell us what you find out. Not that I'm actually going to do something as weird as this myself, but others might find it... instructive.

And heck, I learn new stuff everyday. Maybe now is the time to learning something new -- from you. It's been a while since I nailed my workflow, but I still remember how to change it. I think.

[Robert Bowring]

Jim, that explanation makes sense. I did a lot of things at that lab, most of which had exact procedures posted, even down to how to open the foil packet of D-76. Shoveling snow off the flat roof, and keeping the lab owners' Austin-Healeys running were a few of the things that did not. Good experience and good training, all of it, even if I never found out the 'why' of some things, or forgot in the intervening 37 years.

If you had to keep those Austin Healeys running how did you ever find time to develop film?

[Kirk Gittings]

A quick search on the web turns up numerous manufacturers suggesting the use of a wetting agent in the developer to prevent sticking, Edwal, Tetenal, Sprint. A few places mentioned Jock Sturges using Photoflo in his developer, but no details.

[Willie]

Anyone know if it would make any difference in Pyrocat HD or various Pyro developers?

If it can make a difference I can actually see in a finished print - a change I see is an improvement - I would try it.

[domaz]

When using Pyrocat HD in the "two-bath" configuration it's generally recommended to use Photoflo.. read up here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67154-Pyocat-HD-MC-2-Bath-Developing) and on similar threads.

[TXFZ1]

From what I read, adding Photoflo to the developer was to obtain even development which makes sense as it is a wetting agent. This was also discussed in "The Film Developing Cookbook." It did not discuss how it was used to dig into the shadows. Unless I am missing something?

David

[ShannonG]

Ditto,I use it after wash for 1 min.(very diluted) before squeegee and dry,it has nothing to do with developer it just gets rid of water spots and makes the neg,squeaky clean ,,like dish soap.
There is no reason to use PhotoFlo in XTOL. Use PhotoFlo after the film has been developed and washed.

[ryanmills]

Ditto,I use it after wash for 1 min.(very diluted) before squeegee and dry,it has nothing to do with developer it just gets rid of water spots and makes the neg,squeaky clean ,,like dish soap.


You should read the whole thread, might learn something new :)