What is Azo? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

jbenedict

4-Feb-2016, 10:24

Very slow! I never had the opportunity to use Azo with my contact printing but those who have used it praise its' ability to render tonality in shadows. It also took selenium toning very well. As I said, I never used it. It would be cool if someone who has used Azo extensively could comment on its characteristics.

It was not the only slow contact printing paper which was available but I believe it was one of the last. When you read about old-school contact printers like Weston who printed with 10 watt bulbs in desk lamps, contact speed paper was what they used.

Perhaps someone knows of a substitute product. Some of those Eastern Bloc factories kept producing the old school stuff long after everyone else had stopped (I think the expensive part is the machine to make the material. The Impossible Project is able to make some Polaroid products and not others because they were only able to get some of the production machines out of the dumpster when Polaroid went belly up. One of the Eastern Bloc film producers (Efke?) stopped making film a few years ago because the machines broke and they couldn't fine a way to repair them any more and a replacement would be far more expensive to make it reasonable.)

Alan9940

4-Feb-2016, 10:27

AZO is what's referred to as a silver chloride printing paper and, as such, has a slow printing speed intended only for contact printing (as Kevin said) under a bright light. Using this paper for enlargements would be nearly impossible, though some have. Reportedly, it has a longer straight line portion to its curve vs bromide enlarging papers which should allow a wider tonal range to be printed. Nowadays, the closest thing we have (actual better IMO) is Lodima which is produced by Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee. This paper souped in Amidol from a good negative is something to behold.

djdister

4-Feb-2016, 10:29

Perhaps someone knows of a substitute product.

You mean this? http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/Azo_Main.html

plaubel

4-Feb-2016, 12:52

Good to know, what Azo has been, and bad to see day for day what we miss today.
Thank you all for the informations!

In Rumenia there has been a company called Azo-something, which produced film and, if I'm right, paper too.

Ritchie

Lee Rust

4-Feb-2016, 13:58

I attended a workshop at George Eastman Museum a few years ago and was surprised to find that it's not very difficult to make your own AZO... aka "gaslight" paper... using commonly available artists drawing paper and a fairly short list of chemicals and equipment. Here's a link for an upcoming workshop: https://eastman.org/event/workshop/gelatin-emulsion-week-dry-plate-negatives-“azo”-paper

If you don't have the money or time to attend something like that, there are other sources of information, including photo process books from the 19th century or contemporary alternative process resources like http://www.thelightfarm.com/

Wayne

4-Feb-2016, 16:35

Ron Mowrey's book/DVD has a section on making an Azo.

http://stores.photoformulary.com/photographic-emulsion-making-coating-and-testing-book-dvds-by-ron-mowrey/

I can't afford the book but my birthday is coming up in case anyone is wondering.

Duolab123

4-Feb-2016, 23:27

Foma makes a silver chloride double weight contact paper, Fomalux is the name as I recall. It's only available in one contrast grade. I've used it it is a lovely paper, very similar to Azo. I have some 11 X14 sheets, that I look forward to trying with 11 X14 negs from my Folmer camera. I was luckily in finding a Arkay contact printer with Argon long wave uv source, gives very short exposure times.
If you intend to use this with an enlarger it will work fine but, you will have very long exposure times. I have found the chloride emulsions tone very nicely, selenium, or the Kodak Blue toner (Gold) make for stunning images.

plaubel

5-Feb-2016, 02:48

So I may buy some Fomalux for getting an idea of the results of the Azo?

Ritchie

Wayne

5-Feb-2016, 07:04

I don't think Fomalux is available in the US anymore.

Paul Metcalf

5-Feb-2016, 07:06

Hurry on the Fomalux, it appears to be going the way of Azo. Freestyle carried it in the US but I think the only size they have left is 16x20.

plaubel

5-Feb-2016, 09:17

Ok, next I will try some sheets of Fomalux, so I may follow the way of Azo, a bit.
Amidol is the next developer I wish to try, especially as a twobath developer combined with Lith and/or something like Dokumol (Rollei RHC)..

Thanks to all,
Ritchie

Drew Wiley

5-Feb-2016, 10:09

Azo was once popular here on the W Coast. Wynn Bullock was an exceptional Azo contact printer. I personally prefer to contact print on modern premium VC papers like MGWT due to their greater toning flexibility. With a modern colorhead and reasonably fast enlarger lens, one could even enlarge onto Azo. It isn't
THAT slow! But it's main appeal was for contact work. There are many amidol formulas. I find that most of them use more amidol than you really need. The bigger problem these days is finding decent amidol. The big batch that came in from China in recent years is contaminated with something (perhaps nickel) which creates a horrible orange stain that takes a long time to wash out, and that is hard to see through under a safelight. For awhile, Artcraft in NYC had some high quality British amidol for sale. I hope they still do!

Willie

5-Feb-2016, 11:25

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Be careful you don't get this Azo by mistake, it doesn't make good prints.

vdonovan2000

5-Feb-2016, 11:33

AZO was a Kodak product. Slow graded contact printing paper. People talk about it because it has an excellent product.

Better link for Lodima:
http://lodima.org/photographic-paper/

plaubel

5-Feb-2016, 12:00

Drew, I will buy the ready to use Amidol developer from Mr. Moersch at first.
A formula with less Amidol because of it's higher price today. So he says...

What exactly is Azo meaning, is it just a name, or hides there some meaning behind the letters, or is it a shorten version of a longer word?

Meanwhile, there is a lot to read for me, links to Lodima, I may look at Wynn Bullock, and if I get some urinal pain, informations too...

Drew Wiley

5-Feb-2016, 12:58

I have no ideal what Azo means. It's one of those funny Kodak brand names that was around long before I was born. Maybe some old Kodak employee knows.
Yes, there are various amidol kits you can buy prepackaged. But it is far more economical to mix up amidol from scratch if you intend to use it much. Traditional
azo paper could go overtly bluish-black with some amidol formulas, which can be annoying. I don't know about Lodima. Classic azo prints by people like Wynn Bullock or Morley Baer tended to be a rich neutral black with a lot of tonality nuance due to both the particular qualities of this paper and contact printing itself.
Amidol itself has pharmaceutical applications; but I've been told that photographers actually need a higher grade of purity!

Alan9940

5-Feb-2016, 13:00

For awhile, Artcraft in NYC had some high quality British amidol for sale. I hope they still do!

They do! It was out of stock for several months, but it's back in stock now; or, at least, last time I looked. I just stocked up recently because IMO the Chinese stuff is total crap!

papercam

5-Feb-2016, 13:09

OP

Look at TheLightFarm and search for "seawater" emulsion. It is not AZO but it is a simple Silver Chloride emulsion that seems very easy to make.

They do! It was out of stock for several months, but it's back in stock now; or, at least, last time I looked. I just stocked up recently because IMO the Chinese stuff is total crap!

It might be total crap, but the story behind it is fantastic.

plaubel

5-Feb-2016, 13:09

Before mixing it myself, I will start with Moersch Amidol, because I can be sure that it will work fine.
If Amidol becomes a nice stuff to me, then I will look for the chemicals.
Thank you for the good tips.

Ritchie

Drew Wiley

5-Feb-2016, 13:19

Alan9940

5-Feb-2016, 14:15

Thanks, Alan. I do have a pretty good supply of Artcraft amidol on my shelf now, but should probably buy some more while I can. Don't know what I'll do with
the jar of Chinese stuff - maybe it will cure bladder isuues in my cats!

Drew, yeah I keep all my bulk chemicals in a small fridge that maintains about 50F year round; living in the desert southwest ya gotta do something during the "warm" months! :) And, I'm running out of room because I keep ordering more chemicals from ArtCraft. Anyway, perhaps my use of the word "crap" when referring to the Chinese Amidol was a bit harsh. I still have some and will use it when I'm just playing around with something, but it's a pain because I have to filter it several times during a relatively short printing session. Thankfully, I've never seen the "purple issues" that others have reported.

chuck461

5-Feb-2016, 14:27

Before mixing it myself, I will start with Moersch Amidol, because I can be sure that it will work fine.

Ritchie

Unfortunately, this is not a guarantee. A few years ago I bought an Amidol developer kit from a reputable US company. I suspect it contained the Chinese Amidol because it stained my prints terribly.I suggest that you ask your supplier where theirs came from.

Drew Wiley

5-Feb-2016, 14:34

I never had a problem with any amidol until that Chinese round flooded the market. They must have batched it in some kind of metal container. Glycin is fussier
because you need to keep it unopened in the freezer in order to successfully stockpile it. Once it starts oxidizing it can some really interesting things, but past a
certain point, when it goes really deep brown or almost black, it stains the paper so badly that the image is barely differentiated. With amidol the grayness or blackness of the powder apparently has no effect. But moisture contamination will wreck it or make it difficult to dissolve.

Alan9940

5-Feb-2016, 15:19

Glycin is fussier
because you need to keep it unopened in the freezer in order to successfully stockpile it. Once it starts oxidizing it can some really interesting things, but past a
certain point, when it goes really deep brown or almost black, it stains the paper so badly that the image is barely differentiated.

Exactly why I've never mixed a batch of Ansco 130, though I've pined over it for many years! ;)

Wayne

5-Feb-2016, 15:25

I've had well-sealed but opened glycin in the freezer for nearly 10 years and its still in good shape. It works quite well in my experience even after it has darkened some but when it turns brown you run the risk of staining.

plaubel

5-Feb-2016, 15:40

I suggest that you ask your supplier where theirs came from.

Thanks for the suggestion, but in this question, I can trust Mr. Moersch.
Like a druid, he seems to do nothing else then mixing chemicals, except printing fine pictures.
For me, that's the man who may bring chinese Amidol to work :-)

Papercam: "Look at TheLightFarm and search for "seawater" emulsion"

I will do, thank you..

Ritchie

Drew Wiley

5-Feb-2016, 16:31

Wayne - I carefully age different bottles of my glycin depending on the specific paper and image. It's kinda like aging wine till it's just right. It starts out off-white or barely tan with its coolest effect, then progresses through a mocha color (or latte if you prefer that!), then to a distinct chocolate color, each phase giving a slightly different nuance, progressively warmer. But when it get almost black I consider it past the point of no return, so always try to use it up first.

Duolab123

5-Feb-2016, 17:46

From time to time and concerning paper, I can hear the term "Azo" in this forum.
Can you please tell me, what exactly Azo was, and what the meaning of this word is?

Thanks a lot,
Ritchie

Azo and Velox were Brand names of early develop out papers produced by companies acquired by Geo. Eastman. Azo and Velox, along with Kruxo (made by Kilborn Photo paper in Cedar Rapids Iowa) all became very popular with the advent of real photo postcards (RPPC). Folding cameras produced by Eastman and others that used 122 roll film produced a 3 1/4" x 5 1/2 " negative. The postal regulations in the US changed in 1907 which spurred the craze of photo post cards. (This is all in George Eastman: A Biography By Elizabeth Brayer) Contact paper was the norm for just about all snaps until the Leica folks came along. I love AZO but I agree with others on the forum, it's a lot easier and to contact print with a modern VC paper, using your enlarger with a color head as a light source. You can control contrast results are more repeatable.
It's all very romantic to think about this stuff and to some extent it is true it is (was) great paper but so are the wonderful stuff we can buy today.
I bought a bunch of the Fomalux, I used it it's GREAT!!, still Ilford Multigrade is a lot easier and gives me more control of contrast.
Best Regards! Mike

Taija71A

5-Feb-2016, 17:47

... I carefully age different bottles of my glycin depending on the specific paper and image...

Drew, when you say "Bottles of your Glycin"...

Are you referring to Ansco 130 'Stock' or perhaps...
Just a Glycin/Sodium Sulfite or Glycin/Sodium Sulfite/Carbonate 'Stock' Solution. *You get the idea of course.
Just curious...

Thank-you! -Tim.

Wayne

5-Feb-2016, 21:27

I think he's talking about the glycin itself, because those are the colors it goes through. I've never let mine go past mocha because that's where I've started to see staining. or maybe that's just where I ran out. It still "works" even when its quite brown, though it may work a bit differently. But its still pretty damn good. I've never made carefully controlled comparisons.

Taija71A

5-Feb-2016, 22:00

Wayne, thank-you for the reply. Yes, that could 'possibly' be the very case.

But, because Drew originally stated... "Wayne - I 'carefully' age different bottles of my Glycin"...
I was hoping, that he might choose to enlighten us further -- On this 'careful' technique of his?

As you and I are well aware, just letting your different bottles of (Raw) Glycin age...
Would not in 'itself' be especially noteworthy or very scientific.

Agreed!
Yes... Glycin is a 'very special' Reducing/Developing Agent -- For both Paper and Film.

papercam

6-Feb-2016, 00:43

I wish my memory wasn't failing, but 10-12 years ago that guy "John or Johnny"? the French Canadian chemical supplier? wanted to sell me POUNDS of Glycin for cheap about a year before he was closing shop. It was aged to perfection, brown and getting darker. Needlesstosay, I didn't buy it. I don't think "crap" was too harsh :) its as if it is like you know, "Barbie's Amidol: you can make prints as pink as my townhouse! and Mustang convertible !" I never realized it was pink because it was stored in some sort of metal, I thought it was pink because it was substandard, made with cheap or wrong ingredients to save money and "switched" for what was supposed to be sold. You know after waiting two years, MAS did his test they gave him the good stuff, he said "This is good stuff, here is your big suitcase of money" and they gave him a crate of crap. I have heard of the "switch" happening in other industries ( the sample is high quality, the actual delivered product isn't) where buyers did not have their own testing facilities to make sure they aren't getting "ripped off". The time that Chinese Amidol was made and sold was around the time coal dust was found in toothpaste, melamine was found in baby formula and dog food, and other bad product was made. I don't use Amidol, never really found a need for it, even for developing out AZO. I kind of like Dektol-Green Azo prints personally. The big ones I have made hang perfectly over my green sofa.

Duolab123

6-Feb-2016, 18:10

I've got 4 bottles of Kodak Athenon (Glycin ) looks to be from the 40's looks like sparkling cocoa powder still free flowing powder. The Glycin I have from Eastman Chemical division from the 80's looks pretty bad. I made 130. I'm starting to think the old stuff maybe magic powder, I think I need to mix some up see how exotic I can get. I have some 11 x 14 Azo from 1985 try different dilutions see how many colors I can get.

Taija71A

6-Feb-2016, 20:15

... I've got 4 bottles of Kodak Athenon (Glycin ) looks to be from the 40's looks like sparkling cocoa powder still free flowing powder...

@Duolab123... Thank-you for posting your comment Re: Athenon (Glycin).

At first, I did not think that the Trade Name 'Athenon' went back that far (1940's).
But, you are correct and there is the distinct 'possibility' that your Athenon is from the 1940's.

Please see p. 29 from the following Kodak Publication (from 1940) for verification.

KODAK Picture-Making Aids (No. 7735 8-40).
http://www.libraryweb.org/~digitized/tradecats/kodak/Kodak_picture_making_aids_1940.pdf

Regards, -Tim.

plaubel

7-Feb-2016, 00:31

Azo and Velox, along with Kruxo (made by Kilborn Photo paper in Cedar Rapids Iowa) all became very popular with the advent of real photo postcards (RPPC)...

Thanks for the historical informations.

With your experience in using Fomalux, would you say that with a good negative, Amidol and Fomalux it may possible to get more finest details than with a standard developer and MC paper?

And to the masters of Amidol out there, do you think that it may give best results to combine Amidol with my favourite FB Fomabrom?

Ritchie

Duolab123

7-Feb-2016, 18:38

Thanks for the historical informations.

With your experience in using Fomalux, would you say that with a good negative, Amidol and Fomalux it may possible to get more finest details than with a standard developer and MC paper?

And to the masters of Amidol out there, do you think that it may give best results to combine Amidol with my favourite FB Fomabrom?

Ritchie

I'm not any kind of authority on Amidol, The Fomalux is lovely paper, I hope there is enough interest to keep it around. I think Bromide papers would also work very well. When I was young I was very found of Kodak Medalist, A great graded cold tone bromide paper, my other favorite was Kodak Ektalure (chloro-bromide??). I miss Ektalure the most, warmtone, G surface was my favorite for portraits. I have heard that it contained Cadmium in it's formulation, I don't know if this is true, but never the less its gone too. The modern VC papers That Ilford, Foma and others make are so great I get along fine. (I do miss all the choices) I have found that I do probably 90% of my final work on Ilford Multigrade warmtone and classic FB papers. I tone every print in Selenium, just the D-max improvement is worth the extra step. I've played around a lot with toners , I love toners, Kodak Blue Toner (Gold) is amazing. Sepia followed by a Gold toner yields some amazing reds.
Still so much fun to be had in a darkroom without a computer. With all the surplus equipment out there right now (I had an old fellow give me a 10 foot Arkay sink with a stand) this is a great time to be around :-) Best Regards, Mike

Drew Wiley

8-Feb-2016, 10:34

I was referring to sealed bottles of glycin powder. I always prepare fresh solutions for each work session anyway, even though 130 is known to keep well for awhile.

Drew Wiley

8-Feb-2016, 10:38

Per amidol - I find this developing agent most useful for bromide papers. Can't think of any premium ones left except for Ifobrom Galerie. Haven't tried it on any
current chlorobromide papers, only old Azo, so won't comment there. I have also used it for neutral black on the new Ilford Cooltone, though the other half of my
secret is generous gold toning, generally without any selenium. Split toning on warm papers is a completely different subject, in which cases I strongly prefer
glycin to amidol.