Rodenstock lens data on web

[Paul Butzi]

For some time now (since Jan 21, 2001) I've hosted scans of the Rodenstock large format lens literature on my website (at http://www.butzi.net/rodenstock/rodenstock.htm). Last year, I served up roughly 61,000 page views of the Rodenstock literature to something on the order of 10,000 different viewers at my own expense.

I went through the process of scanning the darn literature and putting it on the web out of my desire to pay back some of my debt to the online LF community, which I think is a great example of how technology can help us build communities which transcend geographical boundary, and which was pivotal in getting me started in LF way back when. Recently, Rodenstock have finally put the data online, in a less easily browsed format, and excluding some of the stuff on my site which is now of historical interest and useful to those buying used lenses rather than new ones. In other words, some of the stuff I'm hosting is not available elsewhere on the WWW.

Lately, HP Marketing Corp's (the US distributor of Rodenstock lenses) business practices regarding trademark, and now seeking to exclude equipment not purchased through them from being serviced in the US have penetrated my conciousness.

Now, I'm not interested in arguments about whether HP Marketing have the legal right to do what they've done (I believe that in some cases they have, and in other cases they haven't). I just think it's a fairly obnoxious practice, and I'm uncomfortable about supporting their business.

I'm also uncomfortable about just yanking what appears to be a needed and useful LF resource off the web just because I think the local distributor for the Rodenstock lens line are behaving badly. It seems a shame to punish, say, a LF enthusiast in Croatia or Malaysia (yes, really, both were represented in last year's logs for the Rodenstock stuff) just because the HP Marketing can't play with others.

On the other hand, it's galling that by providing that resource I'm lining the pockets of a company that I think is acting contrary to the interests of the larger LF community.

So, what do y'all think I should do? Leave it all as it is, and ignore my misgivings about helping HP Marketing? Add a disclaimer to all the pages, explaining my views? Pull the whole thing, period, replacing it with an explanation of why it's gone, and perhaps a pointer to the Rodenstock site? Pass it all off to someone who wants to take over as host and is willing to pay the bandwidth costs of hosting it?

[Steve Hamley]

Paul,

Thank you for hosting the information.

Maybe the information could be hosted on http://largeformatphotography.info/ ?

Steve

[Oren Grad]

Paul -

It would be a shame for that really important information to be lost to the community; as you've pointed out, it's not fully replaced by the current catalog that Linos has posted online. I've used and benefited from the material you've posted, and I'm grateful that you've gone to the trouble and expense of hosting it on your site. Many thanks!

By the same token, since it is a broad community resource, it seems unreasonable that you should bear all the burden indefinitely. I'd second the notion of moving it here to the LF info site. If there's a cost issue involved, I would gladly make a contribution to support the operation of the LF site.

[Graham Patterson]

I do not claim to have an answer to this, but I can empathise. I have provided information for Mamiya TLRs for years with the tacit approval of Mamiya America (not a subsidary of the Japanese company), but they have similar policies. Most Mamiya distributors (US, UK, and Germany) have removed a lot of historical material recently. While I am not expecting to receive a 'take down' notice, I would not be too surprised. I have included this paragraph on my pages for years now:

"Portions of this document may use terms that are either registered trade marks, or claimed as such. The use of such is not intended to support nor disparage any trademark claim. On request any reference to a specific trademark and its owner will be withdrawn. Readers are advised that manufacturer's names, products, and model numbers normally fall in this category."

Actually doing this would render the pages functionally useless 8-)

Given the high regard in which Rodenstock is held as a lens manufacturer, I cannot see a reduction in interest in the forseeable future. The web is a great method of disseminating specialist information. Unfortunately it is also common that this information never makes it to a print library, and stands to be lost.

[J. P. Mose]

Paul,

I love it as well and have visited it in recent weeks as I have been purchasing lenses for my 8x10. I think all of us owe you a special debt of gratitude for taking the time to post a site that is so invaluable. Whether you choose to discontinue this information or not, it has been a great asset to date. Thanks!

J. P.

[Paul Butler]

Paul, your information is very valuable. It would be a shame to see it go away. Whatever your feelings about the US distributor, please consider continuing to offer your information to the world as you have been doing. The information, as far as I can tell, is accurate so it would be in the best spirit of the internet to continue making it available to the public.

[Dan Fromm]

Paul, its very useful. I hope you'll decide to keep it up.

Cheers,

Dan

[Ralph Barker]

Scanning and hosting the Rodenstock LF lens information has, and continues to be a great service to the overall LF community, Paul. It would be a shame for that information not to be available online. But, I can also understand your discomfort over the appearance of support for business practices with which you don't agree. Pending some other resolution or re-hosting of the information elsewhere, my suggestion would be to include a generic, non-specific disclaimer on your pages.

[Juergen Sattler]

While I am also shocked by the business practices of both HP Marketing and Marflex, I don't think that yanking your website would be the right answer. There are many folks who buy used lenses and are looking for that data. Don't think of your wensite as supprting HP Marketing, but rather as supporting the LF community - and that's really what you are doing anyway.

By the way, has anybody bothered to send an official note to HP Marketing to let them know that the LF community is completely upset with their business practices? I know that Bob is on this forum, but I wonder if anyone else there knows what the general mood is. Someone there must be responsible for their business practices! Maybe we should all send a letter - the more the better?!

Juergen

[Huw Evans]

Well, I certainly account for a good few of those downloads, and I'm just grateful that they heve been available at all. I'd hope, Paul, that if the bandwidth costs aren't too substantial you might continue to host the scans, or that alternatively perhaps someone else can do so - maybe even a few people, to spread the burden around? I've only just begun work on a new website, but when it's up and running I'd be happy to take a share.

But what is it with these LF lens makers? Apart from Schneider and now Cooke (who obviously don't have much of a catalogue anyway) they all seem to want to play down the fact that they make these terrific lenses at all. I just don't understand.

[Paul Butzi]

One hitch that might interfere with the plan of just transferring the scans to another site is that Bob Saloman granted me permission to scan the literature and post it on the web, and so the new location would also need to secure that permission.

I know it's a hassle but there it is. My inability to secure permission is what's kept me from scanning and posting the Nikon LF lens literature I have.

I don't have any idea of whether Bob would be willing to grant permission or not.

[Bob Salomon]

Most, of the Rodenstock information, if not all, is on the manufacturer's web site for anyone to see. Just go to the Linos web site.

http://www.linos.com/en/prod/index.html

[Huw Evans]

Ah! I guess I would have stood more of a chance of finding that if I'd known that I needed to look on the Linos website and not Rodenstock. Oh well, live and learn. :-)

[Oren Grad]

Bob -

Paul's got data on many now-discontinued lenses, including those Apo-Sironar-N's, Grandagon-N's and Apo-Ronars that have been deleted. This is really valuable information for us. The question is whether it would be permissible to re-post all that data on a different site, such as this one, where it could continue to be readily accessed by interested users.

[Paul Butzi]

Huw Evan's post drives home one essential point - it's not just about having the data on the web, it's about having it indexed by search engines and thus findable.

Try this: go to Google, type in "rodenstock lens data". The Rodenstock lens chart stuff hosted on my web site shows up as the 8th entry on the first page of results. The Linos site does not even appear on the first page.

Searching for 'Rodenstock lens MTF" results in my page being the first one returned, the Linos site is not in the first four pages of results returned, which is the same as saying no one would find it that way. By the way, Kerry, you might want to update the link on your web page to point to the Linos site instead of to the now defunct location on the Rodenstock site.

I guess I could pass off the data, then leave a 'tombstone' page on my site explaining where to find the new location. That doesn't seem too different from just leaving it all as it currently is.

Sigh.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

As of March 2005 the excellent Linos Rodenstock web site does not mention some highly regarded discontinued products like the apo-ronar and grandagon lenses above 90 mm.
I know at least one competitor who maintains vintage lens data on his web site.

So if a well-known distributor of Linos-Rodenstiock products could make the suggestion to the Münich people to add vnitage lens data to the company's web site, this would be really great, and eventually we could agree that Most, of the Rodenstock information...

[Huw Evans]

As Emmanuel says, there's a lot of old information that would be great to have available, but I notice also that in the PDF files, Linos are typically providing MTFs and other performance charts for just one focal length in a particular range. For example, of all the Apo Sironar -S lenses they give only the charts for the 150mm, or of all the Rodagons they only give charts for the 50mm. That's better than nothing, but it does mean that Paul's pages are not redundant yet.

[Ole Tjugen]

If a new home is needed, I have sufficient capacity on my site - outside of the USA (and incidentally outside the EU as well, but that is irrelevant).

[Pete Watkins]

Paul, thanks for taking the bother to make this information available. I would take up Ole's offer and get the stuff based in Europe. I read that Ole is based outside the EEC but even if that changes in the future (and I doubt that will happen) the EEC is more interested in straight bananas and securing human rights for illegal terrorist immigrants in the UK.

[Scott Rosenberg]

paul,

i understand your feelings, particularily as i'm the one that started the hp service thread. i also really appreciate your site and all the information you've put out there. only you can decide if you want to leave the information up; i for one referenced it many times while considering lens purchases. while the information was VERY helpful, i did not base my decision solely on what i found there. had i not come across your site, i still would have bought rodenstock glass. your site simply made the decison a little easier.

for me, i'm dumping the TK. i love the camera, but refuse to support these behaviours.

[Sir Bubba]

Well, I certainly account for a good few of those downloads, and I'm just grateful that they heve been available at all. I'd hope, Paul, that if the bandwidth costs aren't too substantial you might continue to host the scans, or that alternatively perhaps someone else can do so - maybe even a few people, to spread the burden around? I've only just begun work on a new website, but when it's up and running I'd be happy to take a share.

But what is it with these LF lens makers? Apart from Schneider and now Cooke (who obviously don't have much of a catalogue anyway) they all seem to want to play down the fact that they make these terrific lenses at all. I just don't understand.

[Sir Bubba]

Well, I certainly account for a good few of those downloads, and I'm just grateful that they heve been available at all. I'd hope, Paul, that if the bandwidth costs aren't too substantial you might continue to host the scans, or that alternatively perhaps someone else can do so - maybe even a few people, to spread the burden around? I've only just begun work on a new website, but when it's up and running I'd be happy to take a share.

But what is it with these LF lens makers? Apart from Schneider and now Cooke (who obviously don't have much of a catalogue anyway) they all seem to want to play down the fact that they make these terrific lenses at all. I just don't understand.

It is sad that we have this type of attitude from very small people. The info should not be lost, and perhaps a disclaimer that you are in no way assoicated with them and perhaps a link to Schneider, Zeiss, Hazz would be a nice touch.

[Eric Woodbury]

Paul

How about continuing to post the more relavent and hard to find data on your site. Then have links to the current data on Linos' site. And as backup, post a link to the Wayback Machine in the web archive.

[Bob Salomon]

Rodenstock was purchased several years ago by Linos. Linos was sold to Qioptiq a couple of years ago.

If you go to the Linos web site:

http://www.linos.com/pages/home/oem-services/information-technology/photo-printing/photo-lab-technology/

You will find all of the data sheets on current Rodenstock lenses. Or, if you are in the USA, you can have us mail them to you. Either way is free.

[Eric James]

Paul

How about continuing to post the more relavent and hard to find data on your site. Then have links to the current data on Linos' site. And as backup, post a link to the Wayback Machine in the web archive.

Perhaps this is the best compromise - providing interested parties with data on discontinued items would not directly promote HP Marketing sales.

[Ling Z]

Thanks, Paul. Your website is quite informative, and I really hope you could keep it up. Personally, I don't like the HP Marketing business practice at all, which is also one of the major reasons that I have not purchased any new Linhof or Rodenstock equipments imported by them. Instead, I bought my gears from Badger, MPEX, eBay and etc. I am willing to support the business of Linhof or Linos, but not HP Marketing. Take a look at those threads related to HP Marketing posted on photo.net or this Forum, I fully agree most of them are helpful and informative; However, they are too business oriented. When you say something good about Schneider lenses, usually you'll be reminded Rodenstock might be better; When you have some critiques about Linhof cameras, be careful you could be beaten up badly. Don't get me wrong, I own two Linhof cameras and nine Rodenstock lenses. I love their products, but I am not happy with their US distributor. JMHO.