Help identifying Arca Swiss model?

[Kyle M.]

So I bought an Arca Swiss 4x5 this morning on an impulse, and I'm having trouble identifying the model. I do know that it's either an A series with axis tilts, B series with base tilts, or C series with both axis/base tilts. Looking at the photos I really can't tell which it is, on one hand I would think either the upper or lower set of knurled knobs on the front and rear standard are for the axis tilts, and on the other hand I'd think the two black levers on the bottom of the standards are for base tilts. In my mind it looks like a C series. It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other as far as using it, but I'm curious about what model it is and whether someone can identify it for me from these photos? Thanks in advance for any help.

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[mike rosenlof]

I have the newer F-line, so some familiarity with Arca. I would say you definitely have axis tilts -- two control knobs one for rise, one for tilt on the standard. I can't really tell from the photos if you have them on the base.

[Kyle M.]

I have the newer F-line, so some familiarity with Arca. I would say you definitely have axis tilts -- two control knobs one for rise, one for tilt on the standard. I can't really tell from the photos if you have them on the base.

Thanks, yeah the photos aren't the greatest and I won't have better ones until I actually have the camera. Of course when I get it I'll know if it has base tilts. I imagine those black locking levers may be for swing.

[Jeff Keller]

I also have an F-line and have never touched an older version but I think your thoughts identifying it as a "C" are right on. The levers look too far away from the rail to lock the extension. They seem to be consistent with the oblong knob used to lock the base tilt on the F-line. Enjoy it!
jeff

[LeeSimmons]

I think yours is a c.

I have the B and it only has the 1 knob halfway up the standard for rise fall.

I'm on the hunt for the arca 4x5 reflex which will slide onto the back of the rail as the rear standard and provide a focal plane shutter. Really cool.

[Rod Klukas]

So I bought an Arca Swiss 4x5 this morning on an impulse, and I'm having trouble identifying the model. I do know that it's either an A series with axis tilts, B series with base tilts, or C series with both axis/base tilts. Looking at the photos I really can't tell which it is, on one hand I would think either the upper or lower set of knurled knobs on the front and rear standard are for the axis tilts, and on the other hand I'd think the two black levers on the bottom of the standards are for base tilts. In my mind it looks like a C series. It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other as far as using it, but I'm curious about what model it is and whether someone can identify it for me from these photos? Thanks in advance for any help.

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I am pretty sure it is a C or Bi body. They were made through 1984.
It uses 171 boards but the flat type are the correct ones for precise geometry in using the movements. The F-line from 1984 to 2004 used 171 boards as well, but the correct ones were 13mm recessed as standard.
The bellows, however use a completely different frame system, so don't give them up as they are no longer available. If the bellows gets damaged, you can have a new bellows made to your frames.
You can use the current rails and connecting bracket systems, though not interchangeably with the older low profile rails.
Be very careful with the function carriers as the one thing that is fragile, after all these years, is the polycarb rail guides that ride on the rails inside the function carriers.
The get brittle and can crack. Basically no replacements available.
If you email me I can send you a packet on using an Arca-Swiss that may be useful.
Be well,
Rod

[EdSawyer]

Looks like Base Tilts, so a C model.

I have a full arca reflex 4x5 setup that I recently restored. It's a cool system, I will post about it sometime soon. Here's some pics:

http://edsawyer.com/lens/arca_reflex/

-Ed

[Taija71A]

I too would vote for it being...

An ARCA-SWISS Model 'C' Camera (Axis + Base Tilts).

[LeeSimmons]

Hi Ed,

I just saw your post on the arca. beautiful camera.

I just received a system similar but with the medium format reflex.

I'd love to hit you up on where you had it restored?

I'm having the shutter looked at on mine and am thinking of hunting for a 4x5.

It seems like the ideal system. My medium format gives 1/1000 of sec which is killer for the old big barrel lenses.

Everyone recommends the sinars. But with a sinar shutter but 60th is a big limitation with wide open vintage lenses.

How do you like it? Has it replaced another system? I'm trying to do a sanity check as I feel this combo is the dream combo and there is next to no information in them.

I'd love to hear our thoughts.

[Kyle M.]

One other thing I wanted to mention about this camera is that it came with an Ilex Acuter 215mm F=6.3 lens in a Copal #1 shutter. There is an adapter board on the camera which allows it to use Linhof Technika boards. I'm going to get a Copal #0 board so I can also use my Fujinon-W 135mm F=5.6 lens on the Arca Swiss. Is there any disadvantage to using the Linhof adapter? Or should I seek out correct Arca Swiss boards? I'm not sure who made the board but it says Arca Swiss in the top right corner, I can't imagine they made an adapter themselves to use competitors lens boards. So maybe it was done by a previous owner?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from Besançon!

I have scanned some pre-1984 Arca Swiss Oschwald catalogues here

A general catalogue in French and German, I would say mid sixties or seventies?
http://www.galerie-photo.com/manuels/catalogue-arca-swiss-oschwald.pdf

An A3-size folder describing the whole Arca Swiss Oschwald system with part numbers (in German).
http://www.galerie-photo.com/manuels/depliant-arca-swiss-oschwald-allemand-A3.pdf

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Is there any disadvantage to using the Linhof adapter?

Arca Swiss has (or: had) on their catalogue a 171 mm Arca Swiss board to Linhof Technika 96x99 mm.
F-line reference number for this item is 200005.
See the Arca Swiss F-line general catalogue, end 1990s, before F-line 141 mm boards & format frames were introduced. Adaptor boards are listed page 16/21 of the following pdf document.
http://www.arca-swiss-magasin.com/contents/fr/arca.pdf

To the best of my knowledge, post-1984 F-line 171mm boards fit pre-1984 Oschwald format frames.
So there is probably no problem using an adaptor to use Technika boards on a Arca Swiss camera, at least from the point of view of Arca Swiss ;-)

Not kidding: the only drawback would be for wide angle use, since when stacking something on an original board, eventually you loose some bellows ... draw.
This is a real (potential) problem with the Arca Swiss 6x9 cm Oschwald camera which is not as "compressible" as the current 6x9 F-line model.
But for 4x5" or larger format, the only limitation of the 96x99 mm Linhof Technika board is that it is limited in diameter of the hole to a #3 shutter.
If some day you need a #4 or a #5, the original 171 mm board will do the job.

[Kyle M.]

The Arca Swiss arrived today. It is an A model or A series not sure what they technically called it, axis tilts only no base tilts. Other than some dust and dirt here and there it's pretty much like a new camera. The Ilex Acutar is also like new and in a seemingly accurate Copal #1. I of course had to take a couple of shots to test it out, they are developing as I type this.

[EdSawyer]

hi Lee -

Sorry for the full inbox, that is cleared now if you want to talk offline.

About the Arca Reflex: Yes, I have seen some of the 6x9 ones around, they are very similar but of course smaller. They seem more common than the 4x5 ones, though neither is really what I would call common per se.

As for restoration- I did it myself. Mostly it was a matter of overhauling and cleaning, and some adjustments to CLA the shutter. It was firing intermittently when I got it, someone had tried to lube it but did a poor job, so I took it all apart, cleaned and lubed things, and tweaked the adjustments a bit until it ran smooth and accurately. It's a bit fiddly compared to say Graflex SLRs, but elegant and compact and lighter than any other 4x5 SLR I think. I will post some underhood pictures soon. The shutter takes a sharp turn around the rollers at the corners of the body, they are much smaller diameter than Graflex SLR rollers, so they are more prone to being fiddly. They have to be straight and true, run smoothly, be accurately aligned to the body and shutter, or else the curtains will bind. I spent the most time tweaking those sort of things, to get the blinds to run smooth and fast.

My focus rack/pinion could probably use a bit more cleaning and re-lube - I haven't fully degreased and regreased that, it's very well damped and a bit stiff, a lighter grease would loosen that up probably but I was too eager to shoot with it to redo that yet.

I bought some 8mm aluminum to fabricate some extra lens boards. I have 3 factory spares (143mm boards), but wanted to save those as templates for now, and build some homemade spares before using the extra factory ones.

I wish I had the graflok back for this camera, that would be superb, but even the back it has can take Grafmatics no problem and even a Fuji PA45 (though it's a hell of a stretch on the springs for that), so I can live with that I suppose.

Emmanuel's catalogs are a wonderful resource for finding all the various parts that go with the old Arca stuff, thanks for publishing those!

The shutter is really the only thing on these cameras which seems to require any sort of overall maintenance. The usual things like foam seals may need redoing but that stuff is simple. The rest is not that complex, really. Just basic mechanical precise construction. (note: I don't have the electronic shutter, just the all-mechanical one. The electronic one looks more involved though it only adds slow(er) shutter speeds, so not a real big advantage IMNSHO.).

The 4x5 I have will go up to 1/500, though you could potentially (maybe?) make it go faster if you drilled another hole for the 2nd curtain in the timing wheel. At some point depending on curtain gap, you will run into diffraction (theoretically) at some upper speed, though I think 1/500 is safe from that. 1/1000 on 4x5 might be into diffraction possibly... (but Graflex did it, though they varied the curtain speed in addition to the gap). Still, 1/500 is fast enough for me even with fast lenses at this point, except maybe wide open in bright sun.

It is a great system, I wish they were more common and the various extra parts were more available (like backs, lensboards, etc.) The only other real downside I can think of is there is not a T or wide-open shutter setting, just B. So if you want to use a leaf-shutter in a lens, you have to trigger the focal plane shutter to B, hold it open, and fire the leaf-shutter while that is open, then close the leaf shutter, then FPS. Doable, but not ideal. Also, FPS flash sync is limited to about 1/10 or 1/25 at best (with modern electronic flash).

I like it a lot overall. It hasn't replaced anything per se for me yet, though I may end up using it instead of the Graflex RB SuperDs that I have (3x4 and 4x5, both using 4x5 backs). Those are nice, but I think the Arca is nicer. It mostly depends on how my workflow goes with the Arca, it's reliability and ease of use. The Graflex RBs are nice, but somewhat heavy (esp. the 4x5 one), I am not crazy about the look-down viewer, it's hard(er) to adapt different lenses without modifying the front standard. that said they do have a Graflok back which is nice, vs. the Arca spring-back I have.

If you enjoy using yours I would say hang on to it. They are rare, and for the right combo of uses, I don't think there are any better options. Of course they also natively integrate to the rest of the contemporary arca systems of the time (E.g. the A/B/C Oschwald line of monorail stuff.)

I plan to mostly shoot mine handheld, agreed the Sinar shutter is not really a substitute.

(I know this is a bit long and off-topic but posting it here to aid in other searching on arca reflex in the future.)

Thanks
-Ed


Hi Ed,

I just saw your post on the arca. beautiful camera.

I just received a system similar but with the medium format reflex.

I'd love to hit you up on where you had it restored?

I'm having the shutter looked at on mine and am thinking of hunting for a 4x5.

It seems like the ideal system. My medium format gives 1/1000 of sec which is killer for the old big barrel lenses.

Everyone recommends the sinars. But with a sinar shutter but 60th is a big limitation with wide open vintage lenses.

How do you like it? Has it replaced another system? I'm trying to do a sanity check as I feel this combo is the dream combo and there is next to no information in them.

I'd love to hear our thoughts.

[Kyle M.]

I've got a question about the back on this camera. It looks like a revolving back but as far as I can tell it doesn't rotate, unless it's just stuck. I also imagine that it's completely possible that it does not rotate and that I just un-clip it from the standard and rotate the whole assembly. Note: Not my camera pictured this one is apparently a C series, but it has the same back that mine has.

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[mathomas]

I'm looking at one somewhat similar to yours on eBay. The seller says it's a 'B', and it's not as nice-looking as yours. But if it's a 'B' model, I'm definitely puzzling over one thing -- what is the purpose of the two knobs on the side of the standards? I'd expect there to be only one, even if it's an axis tilt model (well, at least I think I expect only one). Again, the one I'm looking at claims to be a 'B' model, which would have only base tilts, but it has the two knobs as well. Even more confusing!

Thanks...

[Kyle M.]

I'm looking at one somewhat similar to yours on eBay. The seller says it's a 'B', and it's not as nice-looking as yours. But if it's a 'B' model, I'm definitely puzzling over one thing -- what is the purpose of the two knobs on the side of the standards? I'd expect there to be only one, even if it's an axis tilt model (well, at least I think I expect only one). Again, the one I'm looking at claims to be a 'B' model, which would have only base tilts, but it has the two knobs as well. Even more confusing!

Thanks...

Mine is an A mode (axis tilts) the bottom knob on either standard is your rise/fall, the top knob is tilt. It could very well be that you are looking at a C model with both base and axis tilts and the seller thinks it is a B model, or it could be an A model. The C models from what I can tell have an extra knob in the center of the swing levers down by the rail.

[mathomas]

Mine is an A mode (axis tilts) the bottom knob on either standard is your rise/fall, the top knob is tilt. It could very well be that you are looking at a C model with both base and axis tilts and the seller thinks it is a B model, or it could be an A model. The C models from what I can tell have an extra knob in the center of the swing levers down by the rail.

Thanks for the quick response. Yeah, I think the seller has an A, even though he describes it as a "B", and "with base tilts". The knobs aren't identical to yours in design, but they seem similar in purpose. Is the rise/fall geared, or is that knob just the lock knob?

Funny: the photo you posted of the C model (to demonstrate the back) is from another auction that I'm watching. However, I think they want too much for the camera.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Kyle M.]

Thanks for the quick response. Yeah, I think the seller has an A, even though he describes it as a "B", and "with base tilts". The knobs aren't identical to yours in design, but they seem similar in purpose. Is the rise/fall geared, or is that knob just the lock knob?

Funny: the photo you posted of the C model (to demonstrate the back) is from another auction that I'm watching. However, I think they want too much for the camera.

Thanks again,
Mike

The rise and fall is not geared, and I also see a lot of these that are too high. I got mine with the Linhof Technika adapter board, an Ilex Acutar 215mm F=6.3 lens in a Copal #1 shutter, 3 film holders, a polaroid 545 holder, and a nice dark cloth for $385. I know of a dealer not to far from me who will ship and has a couple of these cameras for sale as well. He currently has a "B" Model for $325, and a "C" Model for $375. http://www.igorcamera.com/arca-swiss.htm Personally I would say the build quality of these is pretty darn good and the movements are very smooth. While it is a bit large and awkward it's still fairly light for a monorail, mine does have some pin holes in the corners of the bellows so I just leave the dark cloth over it while shooting.

[Kyle M.]

This is mine when it first arrived.

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[mathomas]

The rise and fall is not geared, and I also see a lot of these that are too high. I got mine with the Linhof Technika adapter board, an Ilex Acutar 215mm F=6.3 lens in a Copal #1 shutter, 3 film holders, a polaroid 545 holder, and a nice dark cloth for $385. I know of a dealer not to far from me who will ship and has a couple of these cameras for sale as well. He currently has a "B" Model for $325, and a "C" Model for $375. http://www.igorcamera.com/arca-swiss.htm Personally I would say the build quality of these is pretty darn good and the movements are very smooth. While it is a bit large and awkward it's still fairly light for a monorail, mine does have some pin holes in the corners of the bellows so I just leave the dark cloth over it while shooting.

Thanks again for your replies! And extra thanks for the reference to Igor Camera. I appreciate that!

A couple more questions, if you don't mind:
- How would/could you fold your camera for putting in a backpack or for transport?
- Any idea how much it weighs with the back and a lensboard?

If I'm beating you down at this point you can tell me to go away now :)

Thanks again,
Mike

[Kyle M.]

Thanks again for your replies! And extra thanks for the reference to Igor Camera. I appreciate that!

A couple more questions, if you don't mind:
- How would/could you fold your camera for putting in a backpack or for transport?
- Any idea how much it weighs with the back and a lensboard?

If I'm beating you down at this point you can tell me to go away now :)

Thanks again,
Mike

Thats a good question. I suppose the easiest way would be to take the front and rear standards off the rail so that the standards lie together flat, maybe even remove the bellows to save more space since it's so simple. Getting the gearing aligned to put the standards back on can be a bit of a pain. I've yet to do it because I've yet to find a backpack big enough. I've mainly been using my Crown Graphic. My guess would be in the 5-6lbs. range, it's not a feather weight but it's not terribly heavy either.

[mathomas]

Thats a good question. I suppose the easiest way would be to take the front and rear standards off the rail so that the standards lie together flat, maybe even remove the bellows to save more space since it's so simple. Getting the gearing aligned to put the standards back on can be a bit of a pain. I've yet to do it because I've yet to find a backpack big enough. I've mainly been using my Crown Graphic. My guess would be in the 5-6lbs. range, it's not a feather weight but it's not terribly heavy either.

OK, thanks. Re the weight, that's pretty light for a monorail camera, so that's a good thing. I am currently using a Horseman 45FA that weighs 4lbs, which is amazing considering the construction quality. I'm interested in learning a bit more, and being a little less constrained in movements and lenses, thus the monorail search. But the Horseman has spoiled me for its lightness and packability.

Thanks,
Mike

[Kyle M.]

OK, thanks. Re the weight, that's pretty light for a monorail camera, so that's a good thing. I am currently using a Horseman 45FA that weighs 4lbs, which is amazing considering the construction quality. I'm interested in learning a bit more, and being a little less constrained in movements and lenses, thus the monorail search. But the Horseman has spoiled me for its lightness and packability.

Thanks,
Mike

Some ppl would say that it's heresy but as a prior medium format shooter I have yet to encounter the need for movements. I sometimes use some rise/fall or a little shift because it's easier than moving the camera but thats about it. And with the Crown Graphic on a ball head I don't even seem to use those. I haven't started tilting or shifting, I understand the concept but have to to have the need.