Burning and dodging for Carbon Printing?? Or other UV contact printing.

[Fr. Mark]

When contact printing using a UV light requiring process, I have cyanotypes and carbon printing in mind, how do you apply corrections like burning and dodging?

I've done a little burning and dodging with some negatives on visible light paper where exposures went maybe 30-60 sec. But, I'm not sure how I'd do it under UV lights w/o a welding mask and suntan lotion etc as exposures tend to start at 45-60 seconds and climb towards 10 minutes with the new cyanotype.

Im told some of these processes are somewhat self masking in that the exposed areas resist further UV interactions making it harder (but not impossible) to over expose. I've seen this with the New cyanotypes recipe of Dr. Ware. Or at least I think so.

Is this also true of carbon printing?

Also, people talk about a long or short tonal scale. I'm still trying to get a grip on all these photo terms. If I get a smooth range of tones from almost black navy blue down to paper base, is that a long scale? I can with XRay film, Pyrocat HD and the new cyanotype assuming a pretty dense negative and a few minutes under the 6 t8 bug zapper bulbs.

These negatives are dense enough I suspect they'd be hard to print well on Azo or regular MG silver based paper.

Part of what I'm considering is making enlarged negatives which would allow corrections but that seems like a pain. But then so is the idea of even more enormous cameras. Or a lot of time tinkering at a computer and enlarging with a scanner and inkjet.

So, how do you all handle this for alt process especially carbon printing?

I don't want to make a huge camera and wish I'd just made bigger negs from 4x5's or 5x7's

[cowanw]

I am presently in the midst of this. I took the course from Bob Carnie over new years and demonstrated to my satisfaction that inkjet printed negatives are quite satisfactory for alternate processes. My purpose is to scan a finished print and duplicate it on a larger size contact print. I just finished my Palladium correction curves tonight and am quite chuffed.

[sanking]

When contact printing using a UV light requiring process, I have cyanotypes and carbon printing in mind, how do you apply corrections like burning and dodging?

Part of what I'm considering is making enlarged negatives which would allow corrections but that seems like a pain. But then so is the idea of even more enormous cameras. Or a lot of time tinkering at a computer and enlarging with a scanner and inkjet.



You can make excellent carbon prints with either large negatives made in the camera (and yes, you can dodge and burn with masks, tissue paper, etc.), or you can make great carbon prints with enlarged digital negatives from 4X5, 5X7 and even larger camera negatives. I used to print carbon only with LF and ULF negatives made in the camera, but whenever I want to print those negatives now I prefer to scan them, apply corrections in PS, and print a negative on OHP with an inkjet printer. If you love printing carbon you will love the methods either way.

But if you think of this as a pain, well, you are in for a lot of it, because making large, high quality carbon prints, can be challenging. As the ghost of Hank Williams said to an aspiring country singer, in the lyrics of David Allan Coe in "The Ride"

"Cause if you're big star bound let me warn ya, it's a long, hard ride"

Check out the lyrics at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2hJLa0T-Sw

Sandy

[Jim Noel]

"These negatives are dense enough I suspect they'd be hard to print well on Azo or regular MG silver based paper."
Overall density is not a long scale necessarily. Thin shadows and more dense than usual highlights make for a longer scale negative to be used with many of the alternative processes. I, like many others, under-expose my shadows a little and then use more development to raise the density of highlights when making negatives to be used to print Palladium,Van Dyke Brown, salt and other processes.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Sandy is right. Carbon printing is not for the faint at heart. But once learned the sky is the limit!

[Fr. Mark]

I don't mind hard work and some frustration if the reward is there. I believe it is in carbon printing. Bonus: failures aren't made with noble metal atoms that cost a fortune.

I can imagine how masks can help burn in areas. Can you elaborate on the tissue paper?

[sanking]

You just crush the tissue paper in your hand and place it over the areas that you want to dodge. You will need to move it around a bit during the long exposure to get the edges of the burn blurred.

The mask for dodging could be a previous print that had underexposed areas. Cut those areas out and place the print two or three inches above the new print as you expose it. Again, move the mask around a bit during the exposure to avoid hard lines.

The principles are the same as when dodging and burning silver prints, but the technique has to be different because exposing times are so long.

The dodging and burning techniques will only work with exposure units where the light is above the contact printing frame or vacuum unit.

Sandy




I don't mind hard work and some frustration if the reward is there. I believe it is in carbon printing. Bonus: failures aren't made with noble metal atoms that cost a fortune.

I can imagine how masks can help burn in areas. Can you elaborate on the tissue paper?

[Drew Wiley]

Why not just good ole red neocreosin retouching dye? You can build it up quite gently and dilute, in effect creating a perfectly repeatable dodge/burn effect on the
back of film, then if needed remove it with alcohol. Or if you're afraid to do that, just register another piece of mylar with the dye on it.

[billie williams]

I am presently in the midst of this. I took the course from Bob Carnie over new years and demonstrated to my satisfaction that inkjet printed negatives are quite satisfactory for alternate processes. My purpose is to scan a finished print and duplicate it on a larger size contact print. I just finished my Palladium correction curves tonight and am quite chuffed.
Bill, is there a way to know the different correction curves for each process? Or is that a matter of understanding the best characteristics in a neg for each type of alt process and then correcting the curves based on your experiences?
Thanks!

[cowanw]

Ron Reeder's book, Digital Negatives for Palladium and other Alternate Processes, is an intuitive set of instructions, with a standard test step wedge, that can be, with a bit of imagination, used with your scanner and photoshop.
I am using an older Hewlett Packard pro scanner CS5 and an Epson 3880 printer.
Each process and indeed each paper should have it's own curve.

[billie williams]

Thanks, Bill!

[Vaughn]

I usually do not burn or dodge my carbon prints, but once I had a small area that was too dark, and then another time a small waterfall that needed lightening. So partway through the exposure, I just took a Sharpy to the glass of the contact printing frame, then put it back under the UV lamp.

[Greg]

Some thoughts on Digital negatives: I initially started to print Salt and Platinum/Palladium prints using the original negatives. Even with very careful note taking and making density readings of the negatives, still took a lot of precious metals to make final prints. Then I wanted to make Platinum/Palladium prints from some of my old negatives. Dodging and burning mandatory for 99% of them.

Bought: The New Inkjet Negative Companion by Dan Burkholder.
http://www.danburkholder.com/store/p8/Inkjet_Negative_Companion_Download_%28no_DVD_sent%29.html

Personally feel this is the best guide for making Digital negatives. They will be brownish in color. Also a step wedge is added aside the image per Dan's instructions. If you calibrate you monitor, use the same printer settings, and are judiciously anal about everything... well easily 50% of the time your first Platinum/Palladium print will be your final print!!! All of a sudden your $$ outlay for Platinum and Palladium precious metals becomes very manageable.

Precision Digital Negatives by Mark Nelson
http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com
A very excellent second resource

FYI: am processing my negatives in Diafine. Not always the best developer if you want to make silver prints, but absolutely the best for making digital negatives from... I meter for the shadows using the Zone system. The density of the highlights seem to be self-masking. Also use the film's inherent/native ASA or even lower and not the high ASAs attributed to using Diafine.

good luck

Greg

[Andrew O'Neill]

When printing film negatives for either kallitype or carbon transfer, I make dodge/burn masks with frosted mylar. If it's a tricky negative, I make an inkjet negative. Easier!

[Fr. Mark]

Maybe I'm crazy, but to start out, I'm going to try to do carbon printing w/o making digital negatives and computer corrections. But good to know about those resources. It also occurs to me that if I'm going to make enlarged negatives, I can dodge/burn at the making the positive step and use that to contact print the enlarged negative, or if i'm clever, I might be able to dodge the film developed as a reversal film. A member on a PM says it is possible to apply different sensitizers to different areas (if I understood correctly) and also possible to "bleach" the image if necessary, too, possibly even in local areas kind of like using Ferricyanide based (?Farmer's?) reducing agents on silver prints. I really need to get my workspace working again after a move, so it may be a good long while before I can get this in action. Carrying on the sharpie approach, powdered charcoal or graphite could be used and it might be easier to feather the edges with it. To do digital negs well I'd need a monitor calibrator, a scanner or a macro lens, arguably a better dslr, photoshop/pixelmator skills, probably a better printer, probably a better computer and monitor and maybe an external drive. I don't have that much coin right now. That said, I've made some digital negatives that print o.k. as cyanotypes and there are a bunch of photos (30k) in my laptop that some small percentage of might make interesting carbon prints... All in good time.

[Andrew O'Neill]

You will find that you won't have to dodge and burn as much as you did when making silver gelatin prints, under an enlarger. At least that's been my experience since I started alt printing 9 years ago.
In regards to digital negatives, I've never used a monitor calibrator. Maybe that's something for people who print colour inkjet photos? You can also make digital dodge/burn masks on Pictorico, or something similar. It works really well, even better than pencils, IMO.

[Vaughn]

My suggestion, and just that. Settle on 4x5 or 5x7 camera negatives to learn the process -- might as well go 5x7. It is a nice size for carbons as one can hand-hold the prints for great viewing.

You are starting a new process, so you might consider making new negatives just for this process. Do not be too concerned about adapting the process to old negatives, but instead make new negatives that fit the carbon process -- both technically and aesthetically. Find images on your GG that do not need cropping, burning or dodging.

Or not. But have fun!

[Fr. Mark]

Vaughn,

That sounds like good advice to start relatively small and simple and learn and enjoy. I've got a great kit for 5x7 and they do make nice sized prints. I may make new negatives and/or use ones I have. I've got a few I'd like to see as carbon prints in 5x7 and 4x5 and even a couple that I would have to enlarge.

Everyone:

I guess what I was afraid of was not the hard work or frustration to "master" carbon printing but that maybe it wouldn't have the versatility of silver gelatin papers. What I gather is that carbon printing can do as much or more as silver gelatin paper. That being the case I hope to spend some of the winter gloom building a workspace and learning this process. It should be fun. Science plus art plus hands on work usually is for me.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement.

[Vaughn]

Carbon printing requires negatives that have a much greater density range than for silver gelatin, so if you have a nice neg that printed with a #3 or #4 contrast filter, you probably will not pull a good carbon print from it...so look thru your negs for ones that might need a #1 filter!

[John Jarosz]

Yes, you can burn and dodge. But that's for later. Start making prints - Vaughn is correct, you need negs suited to the process. If you are having a hard time visualizing a long scale negative, get a Stouffer step wedge that has high densities (I like the T4110 or T2115 - you don't need it calibrated) and include it when you print a neg. You see immediately the difference in range compared to silver.

If you've not made carbon prints, you'll have a lot more important stuff to address before you get to burning and dodging.

[tgtaylor]

If you are just starting out in alternative processes, I would recommend that you start with a simpler one such as Cyanotype, salted paper, etc and stick with it until you have mastered it before moving on to another. When I began to delve into the alternative processes a few years back I went from one to the other without spending the time to master it until I came to the salted paper where, for some reason, I stuck with it for some time until I "mastered" it which, to me, means that if I want one good print from a negative I only have to coat one sheet. The skill that I acquired from printing salt prints transferred to the other processes which I revisited and found that I now had those mastered as well. Being fluent in several processes and not just one allows you to be more creative in your photography.

Just my take on learning photography.

Thomas

[Fr. Mark]

I've got cyanotypes working pretty well. Will see if I can get my hands on a step wedge. Or just print one.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I think everyone has a different view on what works for them when it comes to finding their process. I know when I began carbon many years ago now my friends told me to try just about every other process because carbon was so hard and laborious and I was limiting myself. Carbon gave me everything I imagined and still does. One friend of mine felt different when he saw how passionate I was about the process and once he spoke to the others about it they finally understood. He was a good friend and well respected photographer.

I think you can spend a long time finding what works for you which for some can be a good thing. Explore different techniques just don't become someone who knows a lot of processes but is not that good at any of them. Find what give you that spark and thrills you and run with it and don't look back. My .02.