5x7 Madness: is it safe to use 1920's holders for critical work?

[Two23]

I've been shooting 4x5 for approaching 15 years now, and like the format. I especially like my wonderful little Chamonix! I've been doing some of my night/flash shots of trains using b&w film and love the results. In addition to the Chamonix I also have a gorgeous Century Camera No. 46 with Velostigmat in Volute shutter. I'm not posting about those, though. Last year I bought a Gundlach Korona from a member here. I have shot 4x5 with it--looks great with my 1920s vintage lenses! It's actually a 5x7 with a 4x5 back. When I got it I had no intention of ever using the 5x7 back. However, things change. Last month I was out in Maryland with my wife and together we took a few night shots of the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad running a steam engine at night. Wow, was that cool! I used my Nikon D800E with 24mm tilt/shift lens and five small Nikon SB -25 flash. I was ecstatic about the results!

WMSR:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96826069@N00/23661081336/in/dateposted-public/[/URL]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96826069@N00/23661081336/in/dateposted-public/


Ever since I started shooting trains at night ten years ago, my hero has been O. Winston Link. I'm finally getting consistenly good results taking these shots, feel I now at least understand (not mastered) how to use flash, and I'm comfortable using my 4x5 for once in a life time shots. I'm now thinking of returning to western MD this coming winter to take some shots using LF and b&w film. All the pieces have finally come together for me, my goal from ten years ago is within reach. I love my Chamonix--it's a terrific camera. However, I'm starting to think, "Why stop with 4x5? Wouldn't 5x7 be even better?" I really don't see much difference between using the Korona and the Chamonix, with one exception. The difference is DoF. My Nikon DSLR with 24mm lens has plenty. My Chamonix with 90mm is noticeably more limited. A 5x7 would have even less DoF. This is a problem because the amount of light I can generate and the ISO I can shoot at has limits. On the shot made above with the Nikon I used ISO 800 & f5.6. I've been shooting HP5 (@ 400) and f8 with the Chamonix but that's using big 1,300ws monolights. I am comfortable pushing HP5 to ISO 800, so I gain a stop there. It's possible to shoot ISO 800 and f11 with all eight monolights I have. They are bulky and heavy though! Bottom line is while I would LOVE to shoot the steamer with 5x7, I might be limited to just taking my 4x5 because I can do the shots with just ten Nikon SB-25 flash (I attach two per lightstand.) I intend to have negs drum scanned and I'd like to make a 40x60 in. print if everything were to come out OK. I think 4x5 is capable of that.

Now a final question. I do intend to buy some HP5 in 5x7 and get a couple of holders. I want to at least try 5x7 around the Dakotas. What do I have to lose? I already have an Epson v700, the camera, the lenses, and know how to use LF. I've been eyeing those c.1920s wooden 5x7 holders that are correct for the camera. Wouldn't those be just fine if I got film rather than plate holders? Or, is there an advantage for me to use more modern Fidelity or Lisco holders? I'd like to dip my toe in the water here. I was considering 8x10--those Seneca 8x10 with black & shiny nickel finish have tremendous appeal to me! However, the costs of 8x10 and the amount of flash I'd need for even a medium scaled image just seemed a bit out of reach.



Kent in SD

[Two23]

279 views, and not one person has any experience or thoughts about using c.1920s wooden holders?


Kent in SD

[LabRat]

If they seal well, and pass the light test, why not!?!!!

Steve K

[Ken Lee]

What LabRat said.

I use very old wooden holders in my 5x7 and prefer them to the modern ones. They are smoother to operate.

For that matter, the camera itself and some of my lenses date from that era. They all work fine.

[Oren Grad]

I've edited the thread title to highlight your question.

Other than the obvious question of light leaks, which is easy enough to test, the other issue will be alignment with the ground glass register. Given the size of the enlargements you would like to make, I would indeed worry about getting everything as close to right as possible. So you'd have to measure and test any specific set of holders you wanted to use, and either swap for others until you have a close match or, depending on the direction of the error, possibly shim the ground glass on your camera.

This just means that you can't assume any particular set of holders will work regardless of vintage or brand, and that it might take you a bit of work up front to get everything "dialed in", not that it's necessarily crazy to try. Given the dedication and skill you've demonstrated in pulling off your digital captures of this challenging subject, I wouldn't rule it out. It just depends on how much motivation and patience you have for further tinkering.

Good luck!

[LabRat]

I hope my answer didn't seem short and curt... But I (and MANY others) have been using whatever holders they can get their hands on for their format...

Check the wooden holder with a straight edge to make sure it's not warped, shine a bright flashlight into the light trap from inside to see if the trap is leaking, look carefully where the slide moves in the groove to see if there is no excessive wear or chipping, take a shop vac with a nozzle end and insert/remove the slide many times to suck up any loose lint from inside the trap, check the hinges for leaks and photo tape or recover with bookbinder's tape, if plastic slides, take off sharp edges with fine sanding block or steel wool (will slide better in without shredding inner grooves), then wash plastic dark slides well with dishwashing liquid, brush under film guides with a nylon brush and vac 'em out well (use a vac that has a drywall dust collection bag so it will not exhaust fine dust into the air where you are cleaning your holders), load some RC photo paper and leave 'em in the light for awhile, develop, and see if they leak, load with film, go out, and have a GREAT time!!!!!!

How's that???

Steve K

[Kevin Crisp]

In good shape, there is nothing wrong with old wooden holders. Check the dark slides for little impact stars which can leak light. If they have screws, disassemble and clean out the light trap felt. If they don't have screws blow out the dust from inside out. Retape the hinge as necessary. Make sure they fit and don't hang up just short of being fully inserted and down flat in the back. Some older ones are tighter than others on some cameras and if you use hinge tape that isn't very thin they are slightly too long.

At this age, sometimes the corners of the darkslides get worn or slightly chipped, cutting down the margin for light leak safety.

Personally I use holders that are from purchased new back to the 20's or 30's and I have never had a problem with any of them, provided I clean them and check them over before I start using them. I rarely shoot more open than f:22, so that is quite possibly masking or eliminating any practical issues with slight errors of registration on my holders. Some of the old ones are delightfully light weight.

I am also a fan of Winston O. Link. I believe his go to camera was one of the Graphic Views, 4X5 of course.

[goamules]

...I do intend to buy some HP5 in 5x7 and get a couple of holders. I want to at least try 5x7 around the Dakotas. What do I have to lose? I already have an Epson v700, the camera, the lenses, and know how to use LF. I've been eyeing those c.1920s wooden 5x7 holders that are correct for the camera. Wouldn't those be just fine if I got film rather than plate holders? Or, is there an advantage for me to use more modern Fidelity or Lisco holders? I'd like to dip my toe in the water here. I was considering 8x10--those Seneca 8x10 with black & shiny nickel finish have tremendous appeal to me! However, the costs of 8x10 and the amount of flash I'd need for even a medium scaled image just seemed a bit out of reach.



Kent in SD

Good going Kent, I'm with you, I like being authentic! I've used wooden holders a lot with wetplate, and some film. They are usually light tight enough and work fine.

One thing I do with any holder is occasionally wax both the outside wood (with car paste wax), and the darkslide (with Lemon Pledge). Then I wax the holder rails on the camera. It's so nice to have a holder that doesn't jam up. The was usually lasts about 3-4 shooting sessions.

[Kevin Crisp]

Lemon pledge works. Also, for some reason, using Simple Green on them then rinsing and letting them dry off somehow makes them slide again just fine. Doesn't make a difference with modern ones but on that bakelight or whatever they used back then makes all the difference.

[mike rosenlof]

One issue I have had with very old 5x7 holders is that the little ridge light trap on the holder does not precisely fit into the corresponding "ditch" in the film back. This leads to light leaks, and means the film holder doesn't lie in the same plane as the GG. I haven't had errors due to the film plane, but have seen the light leaks.

I've had this problem on two different (relatively modern) 5x7 backs. One on a 5x7 adapter for a Wista SP, and the other on a Canham 5x7 (wood) back. Newer film holders, the metal handle type from the 50s (??) have all been fine.

[Kevin Crisp]

There is variability in how wide that light blocking ridge on the film holders can be too, and how wide the corresponding channel is in the camera back. Some manufactures make the channel relatively tight. (Canham MQC, for example.) Others are more forgiving like Deardorff.

[goamules]

You want to know what's worse? A Rochester camera that has NO catch on holder or camera! Try removing a darkslide when the holder is in the camera on one of these, before they invented the groove. The holder comes out easier than the darkslide, and you have to put down whatever you're holding, and use two hands to keep the holder in, whill pulling the slide out.

[mike rosenlof]

144708

good on the right, not good on the left

[mike rosenlof]

sounds like it's not just me :)

[Two23]

OK, now I'm getting somewhere! Thanks Oren. I've done some digging and found there are Gundlach Korona holders still around. That should negate any registry problems? The ones I've found are for glass plate though. I would have to use film sheaths with them. They are available too. It adds a little more complexity but I'm willing to try it as it as I'm attempting to maintain 1920s vintage here. AND, the wooden holders are so pretty! Now, any idea of how big of a print I can make from 5x7? Assume: normal viewing distance, modern lens, drum scan. I find it ironic that making just one really big print will cost more than the camera!

As to "dedication & patience," I'm pretty stubborn. A little story about the shot below. The location is a tiny faded town about an hour south of me. On my first try I drove down there, spent about an hour setting up five monolights, setting up camera & focusing, fine tuning exposure, and waiting. Train came, I popped the shutter. It went click but there was no flash! Engineer on the train said over the radio, "Didn't see any light." I checked and found the battery in my tranmitter trigger had just died. ARGGH! Spent half an hour taking everything down, another hour driving home.

A few nights later I drove down, set everything up, tested, waited in the dark. Train came, I popped the flash, packed up and went home feeling pretty good. Got home and went to unload the holder so I could send the sheets off and....they were empty! ARRGH!

Next night I drove the hour back down, spent the hour meticulously setting up & testing, waited in the dark for half an hour. Train came, popped the flash. Engineer came on the radio and said, "Back again to the same spot two nights in a row?" I replied, "Yes. This time I put film in the camera." They were kidding me about that for the next two months. So yes, I am "dedicated."


Kent in SD

[Oren Grad]

I've done some digging and found there are Gundlach Korona holders still around. That should negate any registry problems?

No, unfortunately you can't assume that. There was a lot of variability in construction of wooden cameras and holders in those days. For critical use you're still going to need to check the specific holders against your camera.


The ones I've found are for glass plate though. I would have to use film sheaths with them.

This makes it even trickier.

Again, none of this means you can't do it with antique holders. Just means you need to be prepared for some careful testing, and potentially a few rounds of trial and error, before you'll be ready to rely on the camera.

[mike rosenlof]

How big a print can you make from 5x7? Given a normal viewing distance baed on print size, a 10x enlargement is probably not out of the question, so 50x70. An 8x enlargement would probably look quite good from very close. If you're going to view at ( enlargement size ) x ( focal length ) you could probably go quite a bit bigger.

I know the biggest print that * I * can make from 5x7 is 5x7 (inches), but that's a darkroom limitation for me, and probably not a helpful answer for you. :)

Nice story about the photo Kent!

[John Kasaian]

I used holders older than that. They either are, or aren't light tight. Test them with printing paper before committing.:)

[Don Dudenbostel]

I've experienced the same issue.

[Two23]

I have the two Korona 5x7 plate holders coming, and have already received three 5x7 Kodak film sheaths. A box of 5x7 HP5 is also on the way! I still need to finish up my lensboard adapter (for standard 110mm metal boards,) and might ask for some help with that on the DIY forum. (I need to figure out what to use for the swiveling lens board keepers.) I also need to find a place that will process 5x7, hopefully in the Midwest. My guy in Kansas City only goes up to 4x5.


Kent in SD

[winterclock]

My solution to this question was to buy up as many cheap holders as I could off the Bay. I tested for light leaks eliminating some and then loaded and used each holder a couple of times. The ones I don't like are in a pile awaiting their return to ebay, the rest are loaded and being used. The point being that the ones I like to use are not necessarily the ones you or someone else might have chosen. If you get wooden holders to use with the Korona it won't really matter if they are the correct vintage. If you are getting them to make the set (like my Rochester holders) you may find that you will want to get some good users as well. The important points are light leaks and film plane registration followed by tightness of the darkslides and condition of the felts in the light traps. Fortunately you will not need an entire extra back to be able to use the modern style holders.


ps: I found it a pita to use film sheaths with the plate holders and use film holders for film. So two sets of holders; 1. the original kit and 2. modern holders for use
I also needed another back because the Rochester back is "special".

[Two23]

I got the sheaths last Friday, and the Korona wooden holders came today. The sheaths are slightly too big for the holders, and even if they weren't the interior sides of the holders are sheer (no overlap to hold the film in.) Oops. A swing and a miss, will have to turn around and resell them. SO, looks like I'll simply buy some older vintage but more standard 5x7 holders. I was disappointed with the cheap construction of the Korona holders anyway. Back to the drawing board.


Kent in SD

[winterclock]

The sheath holds the film then tucks into the slot and spring clip in the ends of the holder. A lot of fiddling to get the sheath in and out. The sheath should seem too long, but be the correct width.

[Two23]

Sheath is about a MM too wide, and there are no recesses along the side for it. Just my luck. I have some older Fidelity cut film holders coming. Those should work. Hope I don't end up like Goldilocks here--"this one is too wide, that one is too long, the fifth one is just right." I do expect some bumps in the road when dealing with stuff that's about 100 years old. Part of the fun (har har.)


Kent in SD