Building my own darkroom for 4x5 negs

[LotusEsp]

I'm fortunate enough to have some space in my home to build a dedicated darkroom, but I am a little confused about which direction to take with the processing equipment
I'll want to be developing both colour and b&w 4x5 negs (no slide I dont think)

I'm not sure if I should be looking for a drum & electric agitator setup, or tanks, or even trays

if anyone has any thoughts on this I'd gratefully hear them

thanks
Simon

[LotusEsp]

I should add, I will be low volume, at least I wouldnt expect to be developing more than 8-10 negs at any one time

[Tin Can]

You will get plenty of confusing advice.

Start with B&W 4X5 in 5X7 trays using standard off the shelf chemistry.

Then in a year you can decide how to spend more on not better methods.

[diversey]

Jobo rotary development is a better way for both BW and color film development.

[John Jarosz]

You will get plenty of confusing advice.

+1


Start with B&W 4X5 in 5X7 trays using standard off the shelf chemistry.
Then in a year you can decide how to spend more on not better methods.

+1 again

[Sirius Glass]

Jobo rotary development is a better way for both BW and color film development.

I agree. That would allow you to develop both color and black & white film in a consistent manner. I highly recommend the Jobo 3010 Expert Drum which can handle up to ten 4"x5" negative at a time. If you skip the other processors and get a Jobo system you will save yourself time, money and aggravation. The higher cost is quickly amortized over developing more film consistently sooner. Also the Jobo system can be used for processing color prints and large black & white prints.

[vinny]

Jobo. Expert drums.

[Drew Wiley]

Here is my conflicting advice: start with some simple dimple-bottomed 5x7 trays. They don't cost much. If for some strange reason that doesn't work for you, you can try rotary, but that doesn't work for everyone either. I gave up on rotary for film (not for COLOR prints) a long time ago. It's like ordering a snowplow when
all you really need to do is sweep the kitchen floor.

[Kevin Crisp]

Another tray fan. What is the ratio of people having processing problems with trays vs. rotary? 1:100 or more?

[Sirius Glass]

Here is my conflicting advice: start with some simple dimple-bottomed 5x7 trays. They don't cost much. If for some strange reason that doesn't work for you, you can try rotary, but that doesn't work for everyone either. I gave up on rotary for film (not for COLOR prints) a long time ago. It's like ordering a snowplow when
all you really need to do is sweep the kitchen floor.

Except for that thing about temperature needed for color processing.

[Peter Lewin]

Is your darkroom planned for developing film only, or do you plan on having an enlarger and printing as well? If the latter, you will have to size things very differently, with trays large enough for your expected print sizes. If you are planning on hybrid workflow, developing film, scanning it, and printing digitally, your darkroom will be significantly smaller.

[Bill_1856]

You will get plenty of confusing advice.

Start with B&W 4X5 in 5X7 trays using standard off the shelf chemistry.

Then in a year you can decide how to spend more on not better methods.

1+

[LotusEsp]

Thanks for the comments.

I don't plan on doing enlarging. I have a scanner, albeit a lower dpi one, if I use that initially to identify keepers then I'll take those to be pro scanned until I save up for a high quality scanner of my own.

[Fred L]

Because colour is in the equation, I also suggest the Jobo system. If it were strictly b/w, then trays would be a good start. or other tube processing (Simma drums and motorised base)

[Peter Lewin]

So far the discussion has been trays vs. Jobo tanks based on the ease of processing. No-one has dealt with the space or sink issues. If all you are going to do is develop negatives, you can do so in a much smaller space, with relatively minimal plumbing and drainage requirements using the Jobo tanks. If you use trays, you need a sink large enough to hold 4 trays plus a washing arrangement. (I tray process, so the "tray line-up" is pre-soak -> developer -> stop (since I use pyro, just a water-filled tray) -> fixer, plus since I also print, a large print washer which I use as a negative washer as well.) While I am very happy with tray developing, in your case I would vote for the Jobo system simply because it will minimize your darkroom requirements.

[LabRat]

If you are OK with developing one 4x5 B/W sheet at a time (for now), you could use one smooth bottom 8X10 tray for the entire process, taking little space up, and washing in the same tray... The amount of chem is low, as you only need about 300ml of each solution (easy to handle in the dark), but you would need big opening graduates for each (to pour off the tray into), and a way to keep track of the chem order so they don't get mixed up in the dark (not too hard to organize)...

May sound tedious, but I find something zen-like about taking a 1 shot/1 sheet approach, and guiding it through the process... (Take that, digital!!!) I like the quiet darkness, while developing... But I also have a 8 sheet rack/hanger system when there's a stack of holders...

Steve K

[LotusEsp]

My darkroom has a bench and double kitchen sink with hot/cold water and electricity.

[LotusEsp]

whats the difference between a dimple'd tray and a smooth tray? (apart from one having dimples)

[LabRat]

For film, a smooth bottom tray is good because the film will tend to cling to one spot (and will tend to cling to the tray when you pour out the chems), and not slide around/possibly scratch as much... And will use less volume of solutions, as the small amount will not be filling the ribs/dimples first, leaving enough solution to cover the film well with that small amount of solution... (To free film from the smooth tray, when the lights go on, push it towards the edge of the tray, and it will allow some space to get your finger under it... But the sheet will stay-in-the-tray the entire process...)

A single enamel or Cesco 8X10 tray works well for 1 sheet 4x5 processing...

Dimpled trays work better while printing paper, as prints tend to suck itself to the bottom of the tray, so it gives you some room to get a print tong under it...

Steve K

[LotusEsp]

I understand. Thanks for explaining.


I think this weekend I will go out and shoot some B&W and try to develop them at home. I'll head off to the camera store and see what chemicals & trays they have available.

[Peter Lewin]

Lotus: may I suggest that you make two exposures of each scene, i.e. both sides of a holder. Then unload the holders into two sets. When you try tray developing the first batch, you will make mistakes, have scratches, etc. Then develop the second group the next day, and you will already be quite a ways up the learning curve. I would compare it to learning to ride a bike: the first time you will have beginner's mistakes, but once it clicks, you have it for life.

Incidentally, I suspect the dimpled, grooved (Patterson), or flat trays all have their devotees. I use the common 8x10 Patterson trays, with grooves on the bottom, for developing, and have never had a problem. The grooves let me get a finger under the negatives when starting to shuffle. At the end of the day, you will adjust to whatever trays you choose.

[LotusEsp]

ok, so I am loaded up with:

3 x 8x10 plastic trays
Ilfosol 3 developer
Ilfostop
Ilford Rapid fixer
Ilford Washaid

I'll only be processing a single sheet at a time to begin with. I am shooting on Ilford FP4 film.

Now its just a case of getting my timings and order of operations, and I can give it a go

[bw-king]

I'm fortunate enough to have some space in my home to build a dedicated darkroom, but I am a little confused about which direction to take with the processing equipment
I'll want to be developing both colour and b&w 4x5 negs (no slide I dont think)

I'm not sure if I should be looking for a drum & electric agitator setup, or tanks, or even trays

if anyone has any thoughts on this I'd gratefully hear them

thanks
Simon

If you are a serious photographers and comparing film processing, should use the full immersion type deep tank flushing of the film.
B&W KING 4 x5 Developing Tank (Install 10 film). B&W KING 5 x7 'Developing Tank (Install 6 film),
Can be your choice.

144831
B&W KING 4 x5 Developing Tank (Install 10 film)

144832
B&W KING 5 x7 'Developing Tank (Install 6 film)

144833
Film placing rack for stainless steel manufacturing

[LotusEsp]

If you are a serious photographers and comparing film processing, should use the full immersion type deep tank flushing of the film.
B&W KING 4 x5 Developing Tank (Install 10 film). B&W KING 5 x7 'Developing Tank (Install 6 film),
Can be your choice.

144831
B&W KING 4 x5 Developing Tank (Install 10 film)

144832
B&W KING 5 x7 'Developing Tank (Install 6 film)

144833
Film placing rack for stainless steel manufacturing

they look interesting, but I cant seem to find anyone selling them here in Canada, and the website is down.

[LotusEsp]

ahh, looks they didnt pay their domain registration/hosting fee

I think I'm going to stick with trays for now. Getting hold of decent tanks seems to be a little tricky here.

There is a camera fair in the city in a couple of weeks, I'll take a look there and see if there is a jobo or Paterson 4x5 tank system available.

[Fred L]

If you're talking about the shows in Toronto, I haven't seen Jobo tanks etc in a looong time. Paterson more likely. Still a few diamonds to be found if you look carefully ;) Last show wasn't as crowded as it usually was.

[bw-king]

they look interesting, but I cant seem to find anyone selling them here in Canada, and the website is down.

Dear LotusEsp
B&W KING 4 x5\5 x7 developing tank currently has sales in EBAY.From the United States, Britain and other countries more than 20 photographer for B&W KING product evaluation.
In addition, the www.bw-king.com technical failure, are professional technicians to repair, please.Website will have the detailed introduction of this product.
B&W KING products is the time I use eight years of research and production.Hope more photographers will know it, use it.

I couldn't speak English, the above is the computer translation, I do not know whether accurate.I'm sorry

thank you
144908

144909

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-W-KING-4X5-Format-Stainless-Steel-Film-Developing-Tank-Install-10-film-/291653156077?hash=item43e7e1fced:g:T40AAOSw~gRVlncM

[LotusEsp]

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out.

[John Kasaian]

My thoughts---
Start with trays and B&W first---minimum investment and bare bones (timer, graduate---a plastic Betty Crocker measuring cup from Walmart will work , swizzle stick---enjoy a Mai Tai at Trader Joe's and the swizzle stick comes gratis, clothesline and clothes pens, those bamboo tongs.) Heck, do contact printing as well (piece of glass and a short string of led Christmas lights for safeights,) you'll already have the trays! Just have fun and you'll figure out what you'll need to expand.

[LotusEsp]

If you're talking about the shows in Toronto, I haven't seen Jobo tanks etc in a looong time. Paterson more likely. Still a few diamonds to be found if you look carefully ;) Last show wasn't as crowded as it usually was.

Hi Fred
Yeah I'm talking about the Toronto ones. There is one on the 24th Jan at the Delta Toronto East hotel. I havent been to one before so I'll go for a sniff around and see if there is anything of interest.

Really I have all the kit I need to get going now. Pretty much as John suggests, I've done a couple of B&W exposures, used 3 trays to develop them as cheaply as possible.
I have just splashed out on a HP G4050 scanner, which was a real bargain, so I now have an entire pipeline :) anything else I pick up is going to be 'upgrades'

right now the two main areas of interest for upgrade is a better (brighter) ground glass, and a safelight / IR system so I get a better idea of whats going on for the 15 mins I am plunged into darkness

Thank you for all your helpful comments

[graywolf]

I have always lusted for a Nova Dip & Dunk hand line as seen here

http://www.sinwp.com/articles/Supernova.htm

Always seemed like the easiest way to process small numbers of 4x5 film.

[Dan O'Farrell]

I have always lusted for a Nova Dip & Dunk hand line as seen here

http://www.sinwp.com/articles/Supernova.htm

Always seemed like the easiest way to process small numbers of 4x5 film.

I'm always open to new suggestions, and this one is new to me. I'd like to try it out.

D.

[lenser]

Sirious, I have a JOBO CPP2 system advertised in the for sale section and it includes the 3010 tank. Take a look and maybe we can do business. I also have several other darkroom items available if you want to send me info on specifics that you ae looking for.

.Lenser

[Sirius Glass]

Sirious, I have a JOBO CPP2 system advertised in the for sale section and it includes the 3010 tank. Take a look and maybe we can do business. I also have several other darkroom items available if you want to send me info on specifics that you ae looking for.

.Lenser

I already have my CPP2 and 3010 Expert Drum.

[BKP]

Hand-line or sink-line. You can find 1¼ gallon tanks and 4 up hangers. If you can find a tank to fit the 1¼ gal. tanks. Then build a box out of plywood to fit the tanks, tarp and Styrofoam (insulation). Later on you can get a "C&G Phototherm" unit or it's equivalent for temperature control for C-41. I have used this for E-6, C-41 and B/W for years. I have also cut my 35mm reels to fit into the tanks. 20 exp. reels (I bulk load). I owned a "Imagemaker 1" in the early eighties. The rotary system works well but the sink-line is more personal. I developed Kodalith and LPD-4 in trays, because they are so thin. All methods are fine, so long as there is consistency. This was how it was done, once upon a time....

[angusparker]

I'm fortunate enough to have some space in my home to build a dedicated darkroom, but I am a little confused about which direction to take with the processing equipment
I'll want to be developing both colour and b&w 4x5 negs (no slide I dont think)

I'm not sure if I should be looking for a drum & electric agitator setup, or tanks, or even trays

if anyone has any thoughts on this I'd gratefully hear them

thanks
Simon

Here are some thoughts I posted on my blog on "Suggestions for a 21st Century Darkroom" (http://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/1/suggestions-for-a-21st-century-darkroom) that might be helpful. I would second getting a Jobo and the Expert drum if you are doing 4x5 - processing 10 sheets at a time is a godsend and time saver. As I mention in the blog post, you might want to skip optically enlarging all together and make digital negatives to contact print. Anyway food for thought.

[chuck94022]

I have always lusted for a Nova Dip & Dunk hand line as seen here

http://www.sinwp.com/articles/Supernova.htm

Always seemed like the easiest way to process small numbers of 4x5 film.

I settled on dip and dunk using a combiplan sheet holder and plain old rectangular, 1.5 liter juice jugs easily found at the supermarket. The jugs sit in a water bath for color processing. A precisely controlled bath can be made from a plastic storage container or ice chest, a PID controller easily found on eBay, a temperature probe (they are sometimes sold together), and a simple water heating coil.

If you prefer to avoid the water bath construction project, you can use a sous vide controller (Anova makes a good one) that will hold temps to +- .1 degree.

I never liked the results from my combiplan as originally built. Fill/empty times are too slow for me, and I also got streaky results frequently. Going fully lights out, dip and dunk worked well for me.

That said, I second others opinion regarding starting with B&W, the tolerances and the room to experiment are much higher. You don't need a water bath for B&W. You learn a lot that way, and once you have your darkroom skills (tailored to your room) up, moving to color can be done with confidence.