Deardorff Bellows Replacement

[Smitty]

I replaced the bellows in my vintage Deardorff 8X10 but have stumbled into a problem. When I attempt to close the camera I notice that the bellows come into contact with the lock screws for the rear swing. This will surely damage the bellows.
Any thoughts? Bellows was product of Japan purchased on Ebay.

Thanks, Steve

[diversey]

I bought a 8x10 Deardorff bellow from Tokyo-photo on eBay and have the similar problem. I move the knobs to middle position when I close the camera.

[Smitty]

I believe that is who I purchased this bellows from. I have had other Deardorffs in the past and don't remember this being an issue. I would think this would eventually wear through the bellows..

[vinny]

What did the bellows manufacturer say about it?

[Smitty]

Have not yet contacted them, just discovered this issue....

[Duolab123]

I've got a V8 bellows haven't fogged film yet but they will need to be replaced at some point, I'm very interested in how this works out. I have even thought of sending mine to the "new" old Deardorff fellow in Tennessee, just haven't been able to justify the cost just yet. I see this seller is from Japan, are the bellows actually made in Japan to the best of your knowledge?
Best Regards, Mike

[Len Middleton]

I've got a V8 bellows haven't fogged film yet but they will need to be replaced at some point, I'm very interested in how this works out. I have even thought of sending mine to the "new" old Deardorff fellow in Tennessee, just haven't been able to justify the cost just yet. I see this seller is from Japan, are the bellows actually made in Japan to the best of your knowledge?
Best Regards, Mike

Mike,

Whomever you choose to get the work done or purchase a bellows from, you might want to do a search on the potential vendor's name, as there are considerable resources on the site to research, including a whole Advisory section.

Unless you are the adventurous type and like to experience a well-travelled road without any bias, and learn on your own...

Just a caution,

Len

[diversey]

Send yours to Tennessee? Tokyo V8 bellow is well made. I like it. The frames are already installed on bellow. It is very easy to install it.


I've got a V8 bellows haven't fogged film yet but they will need to be replaced at some point, I'm very interested in how this works out. I have even thought of sending mine to the "new" old Deardorff fellow in Tennessee, just haven't been able to justify the cost just yet. I see this seller is from Japan, are the bellows actually made in Japan to the best of your knowledge?
Best Regards, Mike

[Duolab123]

Thanks for the comments, I appreciate the info.
Mike

[Tracy Storer]

Although several have had good experience with a couple different asian bellows vendors, my one foray was disappointing, and I still give Custom Bellows UK my vote every time. I re-rebellow'ed several 8x10s, Deardorffs and others, as well as custom sizes from 5"x8" up to 20"x24".........
Tell them what you want, what you expect, as what your options are.....have a dialog, and you should get a great result. Turnaround times are not bad either.They do mount bellows to frames for an additional fee, which is worth it in my mind.
http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

[Smitty]

I placed an order and paid for an 8x10 bellows with Deardorff in TN over a year ago. I sent my bellows to them for the frames. No bellows, no returned phone calls, avoids my calls, no reply to my emails. When I do reach them (Barry) Excuses,excuses,excuses.
Beware

[Smitty]

Look in the UK for a good bellows solution.
S

[LabRat]

On several different cameras I have restored, when removing bellows, I have noticed where different designs will have had a contact point somewhere touching the bellows, where something has long been making contact somewhere for a long time...

Putting a strip of photo tape over these bellows wear areas makes the spot slide better over the obstruction, and saves wear... And once in a (great) while, replace the tape...

If there is too much wear on the tape, go to plan B... (Reducing the profile of the obstruction, smaller/smoother knobs, etc...

Happy New Year!!!!

Steve K

[Duolab123]

I placed an order and paid for an 8x10 bellows with Deardorff in TN over a year ago. I sent my bellows to them for the frames. No bellows, no returned phone calls, avoids my calls, no reply to my emails. When I do reach them (Barry) Excuses,excuses,excuses.
Beware

This is an important bit of information. Thanks for the heads up. I've bought a couple bits of hardware from these folks on ebay. Never had any problems, still I don't want to get into a mess.
Looks like I do need to make sure before I do anything, the British solution sounds like a pretty sure thing. I have talked to a company in Rochester, can't remember their name right now. This company made bellows for Polaroid, they seemed reputable, I just want to make sure it is done nice.
Best Regards, Mike

[Duolab123]

Mike,

Whomever you choose to get the work done or purchase a bellows from, you might want to do a search on the potential vendor's name, as there are considerable resources on the site to research, including a whole Advisory section.

Unless you are the adventurous type and like to experience a well-travelled road without any bias, and learn on your own...

Just a caution,

Len

I just looked at the advisory section thanks. Very grateful for the note.
Mike

[Duolab123]

I just finished reading 17 pages in the advisory section, very good information. It's a darn shame.

OKAY I Have another question, the vendor I couldn't remember before is Turner Bellows, Rochester NY. Has anyone had experience dealing with these folks?

[Michael Kadillak]

Although several have had good experience with a couple different asian bellows vendors, my one foray was disappointing, and I still give Custom Bellows UK my vote every time. I re-rebellow'ed several 8x10s, Deardorffs and others, as well as custom sizes from 5"x8" up to 20"x24".........
Tell them what you want, what you expect, as what your options are.....have a dialog, and you should get a great result. Turnaround times are not bad either.They do mount bellows to frames for an additional fee, which is worth it in my mind.
http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

Completely concur with Tracy as he speaks from experience.

I probably have heard of at least three busts recently when buying cheap foreign bellows from which many sheets of film were fogged within a most unfortunate short amount of time between the purchase and the failure of these bellows. All because of the lure of being "cheap". Custom Bellows in the UK reins supreme in delivering a product that lasts and above all - remains light tight for the appropriate number of many years past the purchase. You get what you pay for. The same lesson can be stated for the sellers of the crap one piece lens boards that are absolutely worthless. Ever ask yourself why Deardorff milled three pieces of hardwood cross grain in their lens boards? Because they have structural stability and *$#& WORK. You want to be cheap and put a $750 + lens at risk each time you use it, by all means have at it.

[Lachlan 717]

Michael,

For the sake of others here, can you name names in relation to these crappy bellows suppliers, please?

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael,

For the sake of others here, can you name names in relation to these crappy bellows suppliers, please?

Most of them were online sellers from China or Hong Kong with online sellers names that I do not know. I will have to ask for the details specifically. One of the victims was a very experienced guy in our LF group that only had owned the bellows for four months and had used them twice before taking a two week trip to Death Valley and Yosemite before ascertaining that all of his photographs were fogged. He claimed that the first "test " shots with the bellows looked OK and then they somehow "fell apart" at the pleats as he could see pin holes on a post trip materials analysis. Needless to say he was devastated and at that point even a full refund is immaterial.

To be quite honest with you as far as I am concerned Custom Bellows is the quality standard in this regard because they have a reputation that they want to promote in maintaining a high quality standard whereas the fly by night sellers use low costs as their sales pitch. Unless you are making them yourself from materials you know and trust, why would any photographer risk this issue and have to replace their bellows a second time when the seller disappears into the night?

I would rather pay a reasonable fair price and know that I can get 10 years out of worry free use from my camera's bellows from a reputable company.

[Jonathan Barlow]

The bellows from China aren't exactly inexpensive at $200 shipped. Although, $450 + shipping from Custom Bellows in the UK is considerably more expensive.

[RichardRitter]

I have used custom bellows for over 25 years and have had no problems, Send the frames and they mount the bellows to the frames.

I have had customers that have sent me the China bellows to be mounted on their camera and the frame had to be mounted, sometime the frames would fit other times it was allot of work to get then mounted to the frames, not something for someone doing it for the first time. Have had bellow that were made wrong and was not overly impressed with the quality. I have a feeling they will have a shorter life. Plus on some camera where the over all thickness is impotent they were to thick.

Yes send $200 and have to replace then 3 years latter. Or as what happen to the person Michael talked about is it worth the gamble?

Steve Grimes would tell anyone asking about bellow problems that the best insurance against light leaks is to put the focusing cloth over the back of the camera and the bellows. It is still the best advice going. the bigger the camera format the more problems there are.

[Len Middleton]

The bellows from China aren't exactly inexpensive at $200 shipped. Although, $450 + shipping from Custom Bellows in the UK is considerably more expensive.

Indeed the Custom Bellows UK bellows were not cheap. Looking at my invoice from November 2011 for the replacement bellows for my Korona 8x20 Panoramic View Camera including mounting them on the frame was 290.00UKP plus "Carriage" at 56.30UKP, for a total of 346.40UKP.

The transaction was good with no issues and done relatively quickly, and certainly well within my time requirements.

In looking at the cost of the bellows and potential issues and the economics involved, my last purchase of 8x20 Ilford HP5+ resulted in a cost of about C$13 a sheet, without getting into the issue of that presumably the shoot you were to capture on that sheet was worth the cost, time, effort, and trouble...

Just my perspective on the situation realising that not everyone has the same perspective or uses the same criteria,

Len

[Lachlan 717]

I agree with the sentiments, Len, and have often argued the same thing, particularly in relation to people buying something like an Ebony camera and then asking what budget lens to put on it.

However, (and I write this having waited several years to put a bellow on my DIY 7x17" camera), I do not recall people writing that they've had issues with, say, Rudy's bellows. I have read several people highly recommending them, though.

This has nothing to do with the quality of Custom Bellows' product; they're obviously market-best. I'm just a bit worried that we're unjustifiably condemning all others when, for many users who are not shooting hundreds of sheets a year and wearing them out, Chinese bellows will easily suffice.

One other thing that makes me suspect that the Chinese bellows are fine for many is the number of Chinese cameras now out there from makers such as Shen Hao and Chamonix. I would bet that they don't use Custom Bellows' products, and, again, there is no systemic issues reported on their bellows.

[Michael Kadillak]

The bellows from China aren't exactly inexpensive at $200 shipped. Although, $450 + shipping from Custom Bellows in the UK is considerably more expensive.

I work as a executive technical consultant and my advice to you would be to shift your mindset from "expense" to "investment". Then you would not be voicing your complaint about the cost. Also consider monetizing your investment over a ten year + period rather than seeing your expense fail after two years and need replacing. A camera bellows is a critical strategic component to your photographic success.

[Michael Kadillak]

I agree with the sentiments, Len, and have often argued the same thing, particularly in relation to people buying something like an Ebony camera and then asking what budget lens to put on it.

However, (and I write this having waited several years to put a bellow on my DIY 7x17" camera), I do not recall people writing that they've had issues with, say, Rudy's bellows. I have read several people highly recommending them, though.

This has nothing to do with the quality of Custom Bellows' product; they're obviously market-best. I'm just a bit worried that we're unjustifiably condemning all others when, for many users who are not shooting hundreds of sheets a year and wearing them out, Chinese bellows will easily suffice.

One other thing that makes me suspect that the Chinese bellows are fine for many is the number of Chinese cameras now out there from makers such as Shen Hao and Chamonix. I would bet that they don't use Custom Bellows' products, and, again, there is no systemic issues reported on their bellows.

To attempt to extrapolate that Chinese bellows manufacturers are "acceptable" because Shen Hao and Chamonix don't use Custom Bellows conveys a rather convenient conclusion without any semblance of fact. I have seen first hand Shen Hao and Chaminoix bellows and they are head and shoulders above what I have seen from the "B Team". A camera manufacturer has skin in the game and will inherently ensure a sufficient amount of quality compliments the wood and metal and machining that goes into the brand name. Here from my perspective is where the rubber meets the road. When the Chinese seller (who was your Rudy) heard of the failure of the bellows he produced he immediately attempted to fix the issue with a replacement product rather than refund or attempting to explain the product failure. You do what you want with your camera. Last count I have purchased six Custom Bellows camera bellows and I have another order on my desk with the custom forms filled out for them. Even if you gave me these Chinese bellows I would not put them on my camera.

The game changer in this regard is when you tell us that you know who produces the Shen Hao and Chaminoix bellows. Until then this post is all conjecture.

[Len Middleton]

I agree with the sentiments, Len, and have often argued the same thing, particularly in relation to people buying something like an Ebony camera and then asking what budget lens to put on it.

However, (and I write this having waited several years to put a bellow on my DIY 7x17" camera), I do not recall people writing that they've had issues with, say, Rudy's bellows. I have read several people highly recommending them, though.
11

I accept the fact in this situation, I may be risk adverse.

However, looking at all the cost, effort and time involved involved and relative time constraints (lived longer than the time I likely have remaining), I accept the potential premium involved when once considers the total live cycle costs (equipment costs, cost of operation, and opportunity cost). I expect there are alternate suppliers who might be able to supply a suitable product, but it does not take much time to lose the benefit of the lower cost at C$13 per 8x20 sheet plus processing lost, plus the opportunity cost of an image I hoped to capture.

But as mentioned, that is my decision criteria and not necessarily the same used by others.

One needs to consider the total economics (equipment and operating costs) and the value of one's time, even given that I do this as a personal versus commercial effort.

Again, my perspective versus others...

Thank you for your perspective,

Len

[Lachlan 717]

T

The game changer in this regard is when you tell us that you know who produces the Shen Hao and Chaminoix bellows. Until then this post is all conjecture.

As, too, is the conjecture that only Customs Bellows' bellows are good enough. Until there are more reports that "other" bellows are crap, of course.

Many people covert Ferraris, yet still put hundreds of thousands of kilometres on Hyundais.

[Lachlan 717]

Again, my perspective versus others...

Thank you for your perspective,

Len

And thanks for yours! Good food for thought.

[Michael Kadillak]

As, too, is the conjecture that only Customs Bellows' bellows are good enough. Until there are more reports that "other" bellows are crap, of course.

Many people covert Ferraris, yet still put hundreds of thousands of kilometres on Hyundais.

Gut check. This is a niche market not one where vibrant competition exists and where you would expect to find market differentiating components like quality and innovation to exist solely to garner market share. The market share is barely on the scale. When a crap producer of products clearly acknowledges this and is taking advantage of the situation and he does not even bother to investigate the application to ensure that they fit properly, they should be promptly relegated to sidelines until they perform as well as Custom Bellows. As a sidebar. Custom Bellows used to be called Camera Bellows before they went through a reorganization recently. Fortunately the quality and the workers were retained. Where would we as a community be if enough people were of the same mindset as you such that the only bellows options were these POS wannabe's from abroad or DIY bellows.

The analogy about Ferraris is a bit of a stretch. We are talking about the difference between several hundred dollars in insurance value. I know guys that spend $10 - $25 for a sheet of 8x10 sheet film B&W / Color. They talk about the expenses of travel, gas, food and lodging let along your time. Take a two week like my friend did and look at the fogged negatives and tell me it was worth it. Even without a refund he was on the phone to Camera Bellows the next day. Your choice and I wish you well.

[Duolab123]

So I guess I will keep using my original bellows until I see a problem, haven't seen any problems yet. I bought my V8 from a elderly piano tuner, gave him his asking price of 700 bucks. Came with a Packard shutter and a big ol Wollensak (not a soft focus) and a couple holders. Took about 5 hours cleaning the dust off the thing. Haven't touched the original finish, just cleaned and used a very small amount of wax and lemon oil. I don't think I will be lugging an 8 x 10 into the outback anytime soon. Mostly want to do portraits. As pretty as these cameras are I would be taking the least risky road, sounds like the Custom Bellows folks have yet to disappoint.

My friend handed over her 8x10 Elwood enlarger we got about 30 years back to make pan shot prints. It had the bellows replaced right before we got it, some god awful rubber, plastic stuff. Boy the stuff holds up as they are like new, ugly as can be and very hard to compress. I don't want to go down this road.
Best Regards to all. Mike

[koh303]

Rudy now makes the bellows for tenesee deardorff.
I have bought many bellows from him, and an equal amount from the Japanese maker.
With Rudy - while the quality is top notch, fitment varies. Some were custom sized per my request and others were his standard sized pre cut - The deardorff stuff has improved, but recently, the size discrepancy meant some serious re working was required to make the bellows mount on frames.

As the Japanese bellows maker (J) all come pre mounted on frames he makes, that is not a problem. So far, i have only ordered Rudy's stuff when J did have any.

With regards to the OP - i have not noticed this same problem, though J's bellows are thicker, and have less precise pleats and folds making for a slightly thicker over all min folded length, leading to issues with closing, sometimes, on some cameras and especially with the red ones, which are made of a far heavier and thicker material and not a problem ever with black stuff.

The material from Rudy varies, it is sometimes similar to what is on newer chamonix and shen hao's and sometimes similar to older, vinyl like material which is more like what custom bellows offer. The materials from J (black only) is super light and feels by far more durable, though of course, this type of nylon material as bellows has not been around long enough to be tested over 100 years as some of the original bellow materials of the cameras they are going on had. In both cases, i have no doubt that J's black and Rudy's newer material will far outlast any user currently on this forum.

My 2C.

[Duolab123]

Rudy now makes the bellows for tenesee deardorff.
I have bought many bellows from him, and an equal amount from the Japanese maker.
With Rudy - while the quality is top notch, fitment varies. Some were custom sized per my request and others were his standard sized pre cut - The deardorff stuff has improved, but recently, the size discrepancy meant some serious re working was required to make the bellows mount on frames.

As the Japanese bellows maker (J) all come pre mounted on frames he makes, that is not a problem. So far, i have only ordered Rudy's stuff when J did have any.

With regards to the OP - i have not noticed this same problem, though J's bellows are thicker, and have less precise pleats and folds making for a slightly thicker over all min folded length, leading to issues with closing, sometimes, on some cameras and especially with the red ones, which are made of a far heavier and thicker material and not a problem ever with black stuff.

The material from Rudy varies, it is sometimes similar to what is on newer chamonix and shen hao's and sometimes similar to older, vinyl like material which is more like what custom bellows offer. The materials from J (black only) is super light and feels by far more durable, though of course, this type of nylon material as bellows has not been around long enough to be tested over 100 years as some of the original bellow materials of the cameras they are going on had. In both cases, i have no doubt that J's black and Rudy's newer material will far outlast any user currently on this forum.

My 2C.

Quite certain any of these bellows will outlast me :) I guess we should count our blessings that we have skilled people making this stuff. I wonder how long people will be able to keep the old medium format stuff going?
Very good discussion! ,
Mike