PDA

View Full Version : Linhof Technika III questions...



LabRat
17-Dec-2015, 19:55
Hi,
I an in the process of refurbishing my (4X5, old style, flat lensboard model, S/N36113 1951/52?) Tech III camera, and I have some questions...

First, I am removing the GG/fresnel assy for cleaning... I noticed that the GG might have been replaced long ago, before my time, and wanted to know if anyone knew the exact thickness of the original GG, so as to make sure this one is the correct thickness...

Also, just wanted to make sure of the GG/fresnel installation order... Presently, it is (from lens side, inside ) grooved fresnel surface first, then frosted GG next, and smooth GG side outside... Seems to have focused OK all this time, but just wanted to check... (I recently noticed that the GG assy is mounted from the inside of the GG frame, so thicknesses would matter...)

And wanted to pick some brains about bellows replacement... Mine really needed to be replaced 35 yrs ago (but was well patched as needed), but seems way overdue now... This model has the rear of the bellows glued to the rear frame (not screwed with a mounting plate, like the later III's)... Doable, but what make bellows have others replaced theirs with??? I know they have be be thinner, so the camera will still close... Has anyone used bellows from Rudy/EC on theirs (with success)??? I don't want this to cost too much, but I don't want to make a bad choice, either... My camera is a well used (somewhat) beater, so whatever works is good...

Thanks, and Happy Holidays to all!!!!!

Steve K

roger-wilco-66
17-Dec-2015, 23:35
As for the bellows: a few days ago I replaced the bellows of my Technika V. I bought it at Ebay from a seller who goes by the name of princechou. It is made in China. It was flawless in quality and the material appears to be thinner than the original. I also like the springiness of the part. It is made of three sandwiched layers of material, two thin outer fabric layers with a thicker cardboard like layer in between. It fitted perfectly in the T5!

As for the T3, I have one (ser # 38???) with the original CG glass (no fresnel), I can measure it and give you a notice.
As to my understanding, there are different ways of sandwiching the Fresnel / CGs. Somewhere I have read that many Technikas imported to the US had the original CG replaced by a fresnel combination. If the focusing plane is OK with the current layout, I'd be careful to change anything to that setup, as this can cause a mis-alignment.

Cheers,
Mark

LabRat
18-Dec-2015, 03:46
Thanks for the reply, Mark!!! Very helpful, reassuring information!!! Sounds like you are happy with your replacement bellows...

Hold on before pulling out your groundglass... Let someone chime in about the thickness with the fresnel on this model, first... I noticed that mine had a rough, chipped edge on the GG like it was crudely cut from a larger GG sheet, so I can suspect something was up... Maybe when I have money to burn (I wish), I might spring for a good GG... (Don't know which I can upgrade to with this model...) But for now, it works...

Thanks!!! (And still open to anyone's replies/experience with bellows/GG for the old III/flatbed/international back camera)

Steve K

LabRat
20-Dec-2015, 01:44
Oh, and a shout-out to Mark/Roger Wilco...

I saw your post the other night about you wanting to complete your RF system on your V (I can't seem to find it now), but I wanted to pass along something to consider...

First, to answer your question you posted, it would be highly unlikely to find a spare RF on the open market, as they are still attached to cameras... Finding a parts camera is unlikely and would be expensive if you could find one... Maybe one of the Linhof repair shops have the parts, but you would still go through the trouble to align it correctly (something that they should do) and maybe some added small parts are needed (maybe this will get a little expensive, as this is a $$$Rolls Royce$$$ of cameras)...

I finally was shooting mine (on a tripod) yesterday (after an extensive overhaul and about 20 yrs dormant), and was thinking about if I should check the alignment of the RF on mine... I realized that the RF + viewfinder system was probably an add-on to the Technikas, so it would compete with other press cameras of the day, but a press or PR photographer would have to be sumo sized to hold on to one of these for hours, due to the weight... (An old lightweight wooden graphic would fill-the-bill fine) So I think it would be a little overkill as a regular handheld camera...

I saw that as soon as I put it on the tripod, that I went right for the movements, and this would negate the the RF/VF system, so not needed here... And I mounted several old non-cammed cool lenses onto a stack of used lensboards I found over the years, so sorry RF, no work today... And I remembered that I had to keep an old generic 90mm cam on it so the bed could drop and close correctly, so that also got in the way... And the RF FOV is small, and much better using the GG focusing for most all of the focusing... So hopefully you are getting the idea that the RF system is NOT something I use (or love) at all... Consider this before you go bonkers adding a new RF...

I would just put a plate (or leather cover) over the RF location, remove the pesky guts, and call it a "special" non-RF model...

Good Luck!!!!!

Steve K

Bob Salomon
20-Dec-2015, 06:58
....As to my understanding, there are different ways of sandwiching the Fresnel / CGs. Somewhere I have read that many Technikas imported to the US had the original CG replaced by a fresnel combination. If the focusing plane is OK with the current layout, I'd be careful to change anything to that setup, as this can cause a mis-alignment.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark,

Originally the Linhof factory installed Fresnel screens in front of the ground glass as that protected the Fresnel which, on older ones, were very easily scratched. So it was positioned there to protect the Fresnel. But this also meant that the Fresnel could not be easily removed, when desired, by the user.

Many decades ago the factory switched and began mounting the Fresnel behind on gg as the newer ones were less susceptible to damage and it allows the user to very easily drop the Fresnel on top of t.he gg and remove it at will. When the factory started doing this the user had to buy a pair of Fresnel Mounting Clips that were simply screwd onto the gg frame by removing the center screw on the gg hold down clip at either end of the gg and replace it with the slightly longer screw and Fresnel Clip.
Starting in the late 80s (appx.) the Linhof factory stopped using this clip system and switched to a simple swing away silver holder that is mounted to those center hold down screws so an additional accessory was no longer necessary to mount the Fresnel. When Linhof switched to mounting the Fresnel to the top of the gg it also made gg replacements much simpler as the shims for the gg no longer required adjusting for proper film plane position since the thickness of a replacement gg no longer mattered as the ground side of the gg rested on the shims so the factory set position worked properly with all gg - except the Boss Screen if it was not made specifically for a Linhof since the imaging firming layer if the Boss was not the front surface of that screen.
So gg/Fresnel positioning was not an importer option. It was and still is a factory specification.
So your understanding of this matter is incorrect.

roger-wilco-66
20-Dec-2015, 23:47
Thanks for clarifying this, Bob, very interesting. My latest Technika is a 1966 model, so I don't have any hands on experience with newer types and methods of mounting the fresnel / CGs. I was referring to the OP's question regarding a ca. 1951 model.

Just to make sure we're on the right track: on the old model like the one the OP described, we have a fresnel screen mounted first (facing the lens), then the CG. What happens if the fresnel gets removed, and only the CG is used?
I'm not sure where the focusing plane is sitting. I always thought it must be on the CG, and not on the fresnel.

@Steve: I have most of the parts of the range finder mechanism. The only parts that I don't have are the cam receiver / arms on the bottom of the camera, the viewing lens on the RF housing, and the lower mirror inside it on the RF base plate. I'd like to bring it back to the original condition, if possible. I already contacted Linhof about it but they don't have these parts anymore, which is no wonder. However, there seem to be quite a few users that removed the RF for weight or other considerations, so I hope I'll stumble upon left over parts.
I hear you about the practicability of the RF system. I guess this is fodder for lengthy debates over many pints of Guinness in a pub :-)


Cheers,
Mark

Bob Salomon
21-Dec-2015, 03:31
Thanks for clarifying this, Bob, very interesting. My latest Technika is a 1966 model, so I don't have any hands on experience with newer types and methods of mounting the fresnel / CGs. I was referring to the OP's question regarding a ca. 1951 model.

Just to make sure we're on the right track: on the old model like the one the OP described, we have a fresnel screen mounted first (facing the lens), then the CG. What happens if the fresnel gets removed, and only the CG is used?
I'm not sure where the focusing plane is sitting. I always thought it must be on the CG, and not on the fresnel.

@Steve: I have most of the parts of the range finder mechanism. The only parts that I don't have are the cam receiver / arms on the bottom of the camera, the viewing lens on the RF housing, and the lower mirror inside it on the RF base plate. I'd like to bring it back to the original condition, if possible. I already contacted Linhof about it but they don't have these parts anymore, which is no wonder. However, there seem to be quite a few users that removed the RF for weight or other considerations, so I hope I'll stumble upon left over parts.
I hear you about the practicability of the RF system. I guess this is fodder for lengthy debates over many pints of Guinness in a pub :-)


Cheers,
Mark

Then a technician has to re set the gg shims.

LabRat
21-Dec-2015, 06:26
Yes Mark, as long as the GG matt surface is at the focal plane, a fresnel can be in front or behind the GG (as Bob nicely explained), and that they were in different places at different times (for different noted reasons)... If you have the original GG (without fresnel), it will still be OK... (Some cameras like the Graflok Graphics also had a fresnel on the inside the GG, but the GG holder/frame allowed for the thickness of the fresnel (.060") so the GG would be at the focal point, as the combo was mounted on the outer GG frame...)

I'm still trying to find out the GG thickness, so I can check if my (replaced) GG was the correct one on mine (as this height would be critical as my GG is mounted inside the frame), so a different GG thickness would affect where the focal point would be in relation to the film FP...

Mark, try asking the independent Linhof service shops... There's still a few around, and I have seen/heard mention of them on this site, and it's your best bet for parts/service for your RF... (I don't remember them offhand, but do a search here...) They might have a "boneyard" of old or NOS parts...

Also, I'm not down on the RF, I just found I didn't use it much at all... But I was thinking that making a laser diode or superbright LED attachment for mine would help with focusing in low/no light situations (where most manual cameras would also have trouble)... So maybe later...

And to Bob, a warm HELLO... (I remember meeting you couple of times when I worked at Fishkin Bros many, many years ago, and remember you as a cool guy!!! I'm sure you don't remember me, but if you remember the shirt I was wearing then, you win the grand $$$cash$$$ prize, because I don't remember the shirt, either...)

And I'll take anyone on in debate if there's many pints of Guinness involved... Just pin my address to my lapel, so they know where to carry me back to...

Happy Holidays!!!!

Steve K

Bob Salomon
21-Dec-2015, 07:56
Yes Mark, as long as the GG matt surface is at the focal plane, a fresnel can be in front or behind the GG (as Bob nicely explained), and that they were in different places at different times (for different noted reasons)... If you have the original GG (without fresnel), it will still be OK... (Some cameras like the Graflok Graphics also had a fresnel on the inside the GG, but the GG holder/frame allowed for the thickness of the fresnel (.060") so the GG would be at the focal point, as the combo was mounted on the outer GG frame...)

I'm still trying to find out the GG thickness, so I can check if my (replaced) GG was the correct one on mine (as this height would be critical as my GG is mounted inside the frame), so a different GG thickness would affect where the focal point would be in relation to the film FP...

Mark, try asking the independent Linhof service shops... There's still a few around, and I have seen/heard mention of them on this site, and it's your best bet for parts/service for your RF... (I don't remember them offhand, but do a search here...) They might have a "boneyard" of old or NOS parts...

Also, I'm not down on the RF, I just found I didn't use it much at all... But I was thinking that making a laser diode or superbright LED attachment for mine would help with focusing in low/no light situations (where most manual cameras would also have trouble)... So maybe later...

And to Bob, a warm HELLO... (I remember meeting you couple of times when I worked at Fishkin Bros many, many years ago, and remember you as a cool guy!!! I'm sure you don't remember me, but if you remember the shirt I was wearing then, you win the grand $$$cash$$$ prize, because I don't remember the shirt, either...)

And I'll take anyone on in debate if there's many pints of Guinness involved... Just pin my address to my lapel, so they know where to carry me back to...

Happy Holidays!!!!

Steve K

Steve,
I didn't think that anyone other then Jeff actually worked there! I would probably remember you if I saw you. But doing national and international travel since 1972 I have simply met too many people!

LabRat
21-Dec-2015, 08:15
Bob, I didn't expect you to remember, but I did and you left a good impression on me... See what happens when you tour like a rock star too long!?!!!

Just be relieved when no one comes up to you (ever) and asks; "Are you my daddy"!?!!! Or having to ask; If this is Tuesday, I must be in ______!?!!!

Stay well, and keep doing good things!!!! (And always great having you around here!!!!)

Steve K

roger-wilco-66
25-Dec-2015, 06:02
[...]


Also, I'm not down on the RF, I just found I didn't use it much at all... But I was thinking that making a laser diode or superbright LED attachment for mine would help with focusing in low/no light situations (where most manual cameras would also have trouble)... So maybe later...

[...]



Steve,

There was a Technika version that had this arrangement, but it was a strong light source that obviously drew it's power from the attachable flash light. There was a covered hole on top of the range finder casing in which the light source could be inserted.

I also had the idea of sending a laser beam on the semi transparent top mirror of the RF optics and already tried it. I happy to confirm that it works! You need to pull the lenses and the eyepiece of the RF though, because they scatter the beam too much. But without them you get two very nice dots that join when the focus becomes spot on (literally, that is!).


Cheers,
Mark

Bob Salomon
25-Dec-2015, 08:01
Steve,

There was a Technika version that had this arrangement, but it was a strong light source that obviously drew it's power from the attachable flash light. There was a covered hole on top of the range finder casing in which the light source could be inserted.

I also had the idea of sending a laser beam on the semi transparent top mirror of the RF optics and already tried it. I happy to confirm that it works! You need to pull the lenses and the eyepiece of the RF though, because they scatter the beam too much. But without them you get two very nice dots that join when the focus becomes spot on (literally, that is!).


Cheers,
Mark

Not really, when the Master 2000 was introduced it had, as an accessory, an IR beam focusing rangefinder/viewfinder that was computer coupled to lenses from 75 to 360mm and had projected, parallax and field compensating frames that were changed by rotating a knob on the side of the housing. The housing mounted to the top of the camera. On these original 2000 models there was a small rectangular opening that allowed part of the IR system to drop into the camera housing and a second part fit into the two holes atop the front standard. In theory this system sent out the IR beam from the lens and after striking the subject its return was read and computed by the finder. However it did not work under. Certain situations like reading off someone with. A houndstooth or finely striped jacket or clothes. It also had problems focusing lenses longer the 240mm. So the system was dropped and all sold units were recalled. To program the finder and the lenses they had to be sent to the service center and programmed on a Windows computer dedicated to the task and running nothing else on it. It's power was supplied by cells in the housing on the camera.
In the distant past Kalart made an attachment for side rangefinders like the Graphic and top models like the Graphic and some Graphics even had the system built into the housing but these were basically flashlights projecting a beam through the eyepiece of the RF.

roger-wilco-66
25-Dec-2015, 09:29
That's it, it was called Kalart Focusspot, I saw that in several old Technika manuals, and one of them is here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/linhof/tech-manual.html . It's a bit toward the end of the document.

Jac@stafford.net
25-Dec-2015, 10:11
Focuspot. If you google focusspot you find weirdness.

LabRat
25-Dec-2015, 21:20
I actually used the Kalart Focuspot commercially... Back in my early teens, I had been trained to shoot weddings (YUK!!!) with a 4X5 Graphic, and using flashbulbs (strobes were way out of my even dream budget!!!) , and my camera had a Focuspot... But they were really kinda dim, and only worked if it was really dark...

I have used laser pointers as a focus device, even with my Leica M, as they will focus the two dots into one, and sometimes they will project through some VF/RF's... But to put the Linhof RF system back to use, I'd have to find my old (stored) cams, check out/adjust the system, re-shim lenses, reset bed scales, figure most of my new (old) mounted lenses are non-cammed, and try different laser/led schemes, etc... So I just got through this CLA (and still need bellows sometime), so it's low on the list now...

But Mark, concentrate on getting your camera up and shooting, now... Mine feels GREAT after cleaning up the minor rust/corrosion, and everything moves/locks like a dream!!! And the camera seemed VERY happy while the first sheets were being exposed, as the camera seemed alert/responsive/ready for it's duty, and the first tilt set-up only took moments, and looked great on the GG quickly!!! (With some classic lenses like an old 150mm Heliar, different Dagors, and a 135mm WF Ektar...) And my whole shooting rig fit into 2 compact bags, and a old Tiltall in a bag across my back... (This entire rig was smaller than some 35mm tele rigs I have been using recently...) And the new (old) rig seems itchy to get out, and have some fun!!!

Happy Holidays, Everyone!!!

Steve K