First LF Lens Advice

[seandavid]

I just purchased a Chamonix 045F1 (my first Large Format camera) and it's on its way. I received some great help figuring that purchase out on this board.

Now, I need a lens.

I've been told to start with a 150mm. I pretty much broke the bank with the camera and accessories, so I'd like to keep the cost under $500.

In my research it seems that the Nikkor W 150mm 5.6 may be a good choice. Suggestions?

Also, I know that Linhof and Wista boards fit on the Chamonix. What about Toyo and Nikon boards?

Thanks!

[B.S.Kumar]

Most any Fuji, Schneider, Rodenstock or Nikkor 150mm lens would be a good choice, and they can be had for $200 or less.

Kumar

[Lachlan 717]

No one can tell you what to start with without asking you something first.

Ant that this is, "do you want a wide, a standard or a long lens?"

It is no different to asking what car should I get, and someone saying a sedan. What if you want a small car? Or a big 4x4? If you get a sedan, and you want a 4x4, you could find yourself in deep sh#t, literally and metaphorically...

[Old-N-Feeble]

For $500 you should be able to find a nice 150mm and another focal length 210mm or 90mm... maybe all three if you're frugal and patient and are willing to accept a little cosmetic imperfection.

[Tobias Key]

What lens do you use the most in other formats, and what do you intend to use the camera for? A 150 good place to start but 210mm and 90mm are both relatively cheap and plentiful and might suit you purposes better if you know what you want to shoot.

[seandavid]

Thanks for your replies.

For 35mm (digital) my most used was a 24mm tilt shift.

For medium format I would say the 55mm on my 67 if I'm talking strictly landscape, which is what I plan on using the 4x5 for.

150mm was recommended for a starter lens for learning movements and maybe easier focusing (if that makes sense?). My personal thought was to start with a 90mm, but I've never used one (on LF).

[Ralph Barker]

Buying a 150mm lens, "standard" for 4x5, is the quick-and-easy solution. If you don't mind putting a little more effort into the decision, you might be well-served by spending some time using a framing aid like this:

143577

It's essentially just a piece of mat board with an opening the size of a given format. The string has knots tied at various common focal lengths, so if you hold a particular knot to your cheek, you will see through the opening in the mat board what that focal length would produce.

Walk around, composing "air photos" of various scenes, and see which focal length (knot) you tend to choose most frequently. That will tell you what focal length to select first. Note that this might be the equivalent of most-used focal lengths on other formats, or it might be different with 4x5.

[Corran]

Really sounds like you would want a 90mm, if you like those lenses. A good 90mm f/8 from any of the Big Four is fine. Many prefer the Nikkor, and I agree, it's my most-used lens. If you expect to be working inside a lot, consider one of the f/5.6 or f/4.5 varieties.

150mm is nice but for me it's often just too long or too short in most situations.

[Luis-F-S]

I'd get a 90 mm & a 210 mm. Should be able to get both within your $500 budget. The brand is not that important, all will work better than you'll be able to tell. I' look for a well priced lens in a good modern shutter (read that: Copal). You can look for the less expensive Calumet lenses, they will perform well. Get one of the f6.8 lenses as they are cheaper, and for outdoor use you'll never see the difference. You'll be using the lenses at around f/16-22 and at that aperture, there won't be any noticeable difference between the brands. Once you know what you're doing you can sell them and get something else. Good luck. L

[Old-N-Feeble]

I agree with Corran and Luis. If you prefer 24mm on FF DSLR and 55mm on 6x7cm then 90mm is about the same perspective on 4x5in.

[adelorenzo]

I find I'm quite happy using a single focal length on 4x5. Most of my other cameras I shoot wide angle but my 4x5 is a slightly wider than normal 135mm Nikkor. It wasn't very expensive.

[Vaughn]

I would be wary of translating ones likes with 35mm to one's 4x5. Two different beasts and I think one sees quite differently with each. I suggest not starting with a 90mm, but learn the machine with a 'normal' lens (135mm to 180mm), then decide where to go after that. A 150mm is a great starting point. Plenty of image circle to use -- Caltar II-N 150/5.6 are great -- just a Rodenstock with a different name on it. I think a used 150mm in a solid shutter can be found for $150 or even less.

[seandavid]

Thanks for all of your input thus far, gentleman.

I was thinking a 4.5 or 5.6 as I will be doing some low-light shooting for sure.

Vaughn, good to know about the Caltar. Will definitely check that out.

As far as 90mm lenses go, I've always heard of the 90mm Schneider Super Angulon XL 5.6. Is there much of a difference between this and say the 90mm Nikkor SW 4.5 (besides the obvious aperture diff)? Are center filters necessary?

[Corran]

The SA 90mm XL is huge - it uses 95mm filters. It actually has some issues fitting on certain cameras - later versions have a removable rear barrel piece that exposes the bulbous element but allows it to fit better in cameras with a limited throat size. It's a fantastic lens though.

I also have a 90mm f/8 Nikkor for hiking. While I don't have the f/4.5, I can tell you it has 82mm front filters (compared to the smaller f/8 at 67mm).

I would guess the Schneider XL is marginally sharper, especially at wider apertures, than the Nikkor offerings, but probably not enough to really worry about.

If you really think you need the aperture, go for the Nikkor. The only advantage of the XL would be a larger image circle. Which brings us to the question about center filters. For b&w you don't really need them for a 90mm lens. For chrome film, you kind of do but not nearly as much as an ultrawide lens - it's really a matter of preference. The Schneider XL, with its huge image circle, will have slightly less fall-off than the Nikkors. The XL is really only necessary if you need a huge image circle.

[seandavid]

The SA 90mm XL is huge - it uses 95mm filters. It actually has some issues fitting on certain cameras - later versions have a removable rear barrel piece that exposes the bulbous element but allows it to fit better in cameras with a limited throat size. It's a fantastic lens though.

I also have a 90mm f/8 Nikkor for hiking. While I don't have the f/4.5, I can tell you it has 82mm front filters (compared to the smaller f/8 at 67mm).

I would guess the Schneider XL is marginally sharper, especially at wider apertures, than the Nikkor offerings, but probably not enough to really worry about.

If you really think you need the aperture, go for the Nikkor. The only advantage of the XL would be a larger image circle. Which brings us to the question about center filters. For b&w you don't really need them for a 90mm lens. For chrome film, you kind of do but not nearly as much as an ultrawide lens - it's really a matter of preference. The Schneider XL, with its huge image circle, will have slightly less fall-off than the Nikkors. The XL is really only necessary if you need a huge image circle.

Corran, thank you. You guys are a wealth of knowledge.

[Kuzano]

Presume you purchased the Chamonix new... best bet on any camera with a bellows and the folding characteristics.

Do Not make the same mistake on lenses. There are tons... factually tons, of good used lenses on the market. Find a good seller on this forum or eBay (lots of good feedback) and find a 90mm and a 150mm. USED!!!

Copal shutters with B and 1 to 1/500th second will be the most common times you encounter.

I am partial to Fujinon lenses for price savings and equivalent IQ to most of the better known glass. Rodenstock, Nikon, Schneider.... all offer good value....Nikon the least bang for the buck. Usually higher priced.

Lens glass is very forgiving... a few cleaning swipes or a nick or two on the shutter are forgivable. A good seller will sell you a lens that comes within spec on shutter times, clean aperture and shutter blades and reasonable glass.

I have never owned a new large format lens, nor wanted the responsibility of keeping one perfect. The satisfactory lenses take very good pics.... It is Large Format after all.

Don't go looking for new or perfect until you find you are outshooting what you buy first. Your camera was a spendy venture, your glass need not be. Shoot some "iffy" glass before you make quality judgements. You can most often get your money back on a usable lens. You can never get your money back on a "new" or "perfect" lens.

[Vaughn]

I photograph mostly under the redwoods -- low light to be sure! I do appreciate my 5.6 lenses! (my main lenses for 8x10 are the Fuji 250/6.7 and 300/5.6). The RD Artar (480/f11) is fine to use, but quite a bit darker!

[Jim Galli]

Caltar offered a rebranded Rodenstock Grandagon 90mm f4.5. A fine lens. However, I've been doing this 20+ years and I still consider the 90mm a pain in the butt to use. Begin with something more forgiving, like a 210mm f5.6 Caltar SII. Very easy and forgiving to use. You'll end up with the 90 soon enough anyways, but I caution you not to begin with it. 90mm f8 are useless unless you're in bright sunlight. Horrible things. Thus the 4.5 that I keep to this day but almost never use.

[Alan Gales]

I just purchased a Chamonix 045F1 (my first Large Format camera) and it's on its way. I received some great help figuring that purchase out on this board.

Now, I need a lens.

I've been told to start with a 150mm. I pretty much broke the bank with the camera and accessories, so I'd like to keep the cost under $500.

In my research it seems that the Nikkor W 150mm 5.6 may be a good choice. Suggestions?

Also, I know that Linhof and Wista boards fit on the Chamonix. What about Toyo and Nikon boards?

Thanks!

Toyo boards come in two sizes. One for monorails and one for technical field cameras. Both are too large for your Chamonix. I've never heard of a lens board made by Nikon.

I echo the others in recommending (for you) a 90mm and 210mm. It will be easier learning with the 210 though. Starting out, get modern lenses from Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fuji or Caltar in modern Copal shutters. They are all pretty similar so let price and condition be your guide. Mixing lens brands is common so don't think you need to get both of the same brand. It's actually another advantage of shooting large format.

[Luis-F-S]

The SA 90mm XL is huge - it uses 95mm filters. It actually has some issues fitting on certain cameras - later versions have a removable rear barrel piece that exposes the bulbous element but allows it to fit better in cameras with a limited throat size. It's a fantastic lens though.

I also have a 90mm f/8 Nikkor for hiking. While I don't have the f/4.5, I can tell you it has 82mm front filters (compared to the smaller f/8 at 67mm).

I have a 90 XL which i used on interiors on a 4x5 Sinar. I would never take it out in the field. For that I have a 3 5/8" WA Dagor and a 90 Angulon. Both are tiny and cover 4x5. For something more modern, I'd look at a 90 Caltar f/6.8. Pretty cheaply available-and do get a 210!

[B.S.Kumar]

Technika style boards with the Nikon logo are common in Japan. I've also seen a few with the Fuji logo. Probably an OEM thing, to go along with their lenses.

Kumar

[Bill_1856]

"Standard" lenses which used to come with 4x5 Graphic and other press cameras were either 135mm or 150mm. They are equivalent to 40mm and 45mm on a 35mm full frame camera. Either can be had rather inexpensively because there were so many of them made.
Since you seem to gravitate toward wider lenses on your present cameras, I believe that a 135mm lens would be a good (and inexpensive) starting point. Look at Schneider Xenars, and Wollensak/Graflex Raptars. They are usually f:4.5-4.7, and will cover 4x5 with a reasonable amount of movements.

[Alan Gales]

Technika style boards with the Nikon logo are common in Japan. I've also seen a few with the Fuji logo. Probably an OEM thing, to go along with their lenses.

Kumar

Thank you. I learned something new! :)

[David Karp]

Toyo boards come in two sizes. One for monorails and one for technical field cameras. Both are too large for your Chamonix. I've never heard of a lens board made by Nikon.

I have both Toyo and Nikon branded Technika-type boards. The Nikon branded boards have the Nikon name cast on the front. The Toyo boards are not branded on the front, but their name is cast on the backside of the board. Shen Hao also makes Technika-type boards with their brand on the rear. Of course, more expensive versions are available from Wista and Linhof.

[seandavid]

Thanks, guys. Lots of info here. For the ones that say using the 90mm would be more difficult to start out with, what makes that the case with LF? Is it harder to focus?

[seandavid]

Technika style boards with the Nikon logo are common in Japan. I've also seen a few with the Fuji logo. Probably an OEM thing, to go along with their lenses.

Kumar

Great to know. Thanks!

[IanG]

Thanks, guys. Lots of info here. For the ones that say using the 90mm would be more difficult to start out with, what makes that the case with LF? Is it harder to focus?

Not really harder, just takes a bit more getting used to and it depends on the speed, an f8 lens is dimmer at full aperture than an f6.8, f5.6 or f4.5 with the latter being the brightest.

There's plenty of excellent 150mm lenses at reasonable prices and they hold their value. The 135mm Symmar S also sold as a Caltar II-S (in North america) is a good option if you want a slightly wider lens than a 150, it has better coverage and edge sharpness compared to a Tessar type lens like the 135mm Xenar or Raptar unless you're working at f22 all the time. I have and use both a 135mm Symmar S and a 135mm f4.7 Xenar so that's from practical experience.

Ian

[B.S.Kumar]

Thanks, guys. Lots of info here. For the ones that say using the 90mm would be more difficult to start out with, what makes that the case with LF? Is it harder to focus?

Why not to start with a 90mm:

a. a wide angle lens is harder to focus - the subject is smaller on the groundglass;
b. learning to shoot LF also involves learning about the movements on the camera, and how they affect the image. Wide angle lenses need much less tilt and swing, but that's harder to figure out if your first lens is a 90.

Kumar
b.

[Tim Meisburger]

I also think an inexpensive Fuji 135 is nice with an inexpensive 210. I rarely use my 90, and the cheaper ones have so little coverage they are just frustrating. I started with a cheap 90, 135 and 210, and later went for more expensive versions, in each case buying more coverage.

[baro-nite]

As long as you pay a reasonable price, you can re-sell without much loss, so it's no big deal if you decide not to keep the first lens you try. You might want to think in terms of a lens kit, even if you're only buying one lens for now. 75/150/300 is something of a default. When I started 4x5 earlier this year I opted for 90/135/210, because I generally don't go in for ultrawide fields of view, and I like the "wide normal" perspective. First lens I got was a 210, just because that was the first of these FLs I came across first. I find the 90 challenging to use for the reasons Kumar lists above. Another challenge is what I'll call pre-composing the image: figuring out where to set up the tripod. The shorter the FL, the more a small change in camera position affects the composition. It's really helpful if you get the tripod placement right before setting up the camera, and this is harder to do with a 90mm lens than with something longer.

[seandavid]

Why not to start with a 90mm:

a. a wide angle lens is harder to focus - the subject is smaller on the groundglass;
b. learning to shoot LF also involves learning about the movements on the camera, and how they affect the image. Wide angle lenses need much less tilt and swing, but that's harder to figure out if your first lens is a 90.

Kumar
b.

Got it. Thanks you for the explanation. Makes sense.

[seandavid]

Thanks again, guys. I think I'll go for a 135mm or 150mm to start.

Thanks for taking the time to help a newbie out.

Yes, Canadians say thanks a lot.

[Jim Galli]

The reason a 90 is hard to use is because of light fall off as you move away from the center of the image. (also the reason people buy center filters to try to overcome this same phenomenon on the film). You can't see well into the corners. The image is dark there and focus is difficult. Especially with f6.8 and f8 versions. The f5.6 and f4.5 versions are a little easier.

Also, there are mechanical problems to overcome. The lens is only 3 1/2 inches from the ground glass, so the bellows are all bunched up and movements are difficult - mechanically. The scrunched up bellows won't let you move the lens where you want it.

Also consider the angles. With a 210, you're using a loupe to check focus in the corners and the angle from the corner that you're holding the loupe is almost the same as straight on in the center. With a 90 or 75 the angle you're holding the focus loupe is severe.

All of these things are possible to overcome, obviously, or we wouldn't have good images from very wide angle lenses. We're just answering your original post. Where to start. Start with something easy and get a foothold. The 210 is extremely forgiving. The 90 is not.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Not trying to disagree with others who seem to be discouraging use of a 90mm lens but, honestly, 90mm is not so wide that it ever caused me any problems at all. And if you like 24mm on FF DSLR and 55mm on 6x7cm then maybe you should look for someone who owns a 90mm and a 135 or 150 and longer lenses so you can see for yourself and determine if 90mm is too difficult to work with. Then, if it really is (I definitely don't think so) then may 4x5in isn't the format for you?

[tgtaylor]

I think I'll go for a 135mm or 150mm to start.

The 150mm Rodenstock apo Sironar-S will give you a field of view almost identical with a 120 Nikkor-SW or 35mm on a full frame camera but does not throw everything back like a wide angle. This was a super expensive lens new but highly acclaimed and was the first LF lens that I purchased for my first LF camera - a Toyo 45CF. Back then the camera cost $549.95 and the lens $750 or $795. The 4x5 version http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43853-USA/Rodenstock_160702_150mm_f_5_6_Apo_Sironar_S_Lens.html is no longer manufactured but they can be found used. The new digital version http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=177795&gclid=COjeysfm48kCFRRlfgodBacA-A&Q=&ap=y&is=USA&A=details is priced at almost $2400. This is a small highly compact lens that folds attached with the 45CF for a package weighing ~ 4lbs - ideal for long distance backpacking or bicycle touring - and the low weight and copal shutter allows you to use a light weight tripod. I backpack/tour with a Gitzo series 0 carbon fiber tripod which weighs ~ 2lbs with the head.

Thomas