I've accidentally started my LF journey with best camera for me ... or have I?

[JaZ99]

Hi, I must admit, that 2 years ago I bought just the cheapest 4x5 kit available on ebay. It was Graflex Crown.
Today I admire ingeniousness of its design. However, I'm curious if there is even better camera for me?

Here is what I like about Graflex:
* low weight (~5 pounds / 2.2 kg)
* very fast to setup and to pack back
* ability to store small lens inside folded camera
* no need for dark cloth

What is bothering me:
* no front forward tilt for wide angle lenses and very limited for moderate wide angle

I've been researching for new and better camera. It must be lightweight (less than 5.5 pounds), fast to setup and pack, allows for thick grafmatic holder, have GG folding shade (I forgot the correct term) so no need for dark cloth, and finally it should be stored with one of my lens I have (Fujinon 105/5.6 small version, Caltar 150/5.6 and Fujinon 240/9) installed. And, of course, it must have forward tilt for all lenses, including wide angle ones (I'm thinking about 75mm).

I couldn't find anything. Any suggestions?

JaZ

[diversey]

busch pressman d 4x5

[mdarnton]

If you drop the bed one more click, below straight out, you get a forward front tilt + drop that can then be zeroed back by using back tilt and rise. Then from there you can set the appropriate tilt and drop you want, and he bed will be out of sight of wider lenses. Not many other press cameras have the internal short track of the Pacemaker Graphic series.

There is also the modification, which I haven't messed with, of filing out some of the tilt mechanism to give a bit of forward tilt, or reversing the internal part of the standards so the tilting sector faces forward rather than back.

[Corran]

A Crown Graphic is really a fine camera, especially for how cheap they sell for. I modified one of my smaller 2x3 Crowns for front tilt, and it was easy. I didn't have to file anything. I think I remember reading that some cameras you do, some you don't. Production tolerances maybe? If you don't use rear tilt, I suggest that, but if you do (due to dropping the bed) you are out of luck. I have two 2x3 cameras, one I converted one I didn't. I used to carry both when I was shooting with a few different lenses and switch the back between them, which worked well but was annoying - and ultimately I generally stopped using it that way.

By the way, with the bed dropped my old Crown was able to use a 58mm XL lens at infinity with no encroachment into the image. That's pretty good for that type of camera. My most common lens though was a 90mm, which seemed to be just wide enough that it would be at the "hinge" of the rail, making it impossible to use properly with the drop bed + tilt method described above, IIRC.

Anyway, a Crown was my first "field" camera but I quickly upgraded to a Chamonix which fit my style more. It's not a big solid box like a Graphic though and in fact I rarely fold mine up. I just leave it on the tripod and carry it there. It can use any wide-angle you throw at it, with movements, though limited with ultra-wides (58mm and wider). Of course you could also go Shen-Hao, which is very similar.

[Darin Boville]

You can reverse the front standard to allow it to tilt forwards for landscape work....I have one like that (I didn't do the mod myself, don't know how but it is supposed to be not that difficult). Great camera.

--Darin

[Drew Bedo]

Back in the early 2K years, View Camera nagazine ran two articles on modifying the front standard of a Crown Graphic for tilt and swing. The tilt modification involved reversing the front standard I think. a friend of mine did it in maybe ten minutes while I watched one day.

[Corran]

I found a video of the process when I did it, and it was easy to understand once you saw it. Written explanation was confusing. But I can't find it now. YouTube is great but it's hard to find content sometimes.

[jp]

A couple years ago, I made up a little video on flipping the front standard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAoHIZl9MR0

If your crown has a graflex back, any holder can be used with it. It can also have a metal folding shade. Some graflexes have metal shades, others have 3 sided flip down/up shades with cloth sides.

I really like graflexes. I'd use a crown, but I need the builtin shutter of the speed graphics as I have a taste for old and non shuttered lenses.

[mdarnton]

Graflok back, jp, not Graflex.

[Kevin Crisp]

I have many other cameras but I don't consider my Crown a starter anything. I use if often especially when on trips involving air travel. It does a lot of things well and I use it with a 3 lens outfit; modern 135 lens that folds up in the camera, late model 90 angulon, and a 210 repro claron. Whole thing weighs less than a high end digital slr. When properly adjusted, the rangefinder is extremely accurate for the 135.

[Alan Gales]

Why not have the best of both world's?

Keep your Crown and add an inexpensive monorail. Linhof Colors (not Karden Colors) sell cheap like Crown's and only weigh 4 1/2 pounds. They will also give you all the movements you will want for landscape photography. They use Linhof boards but there are adapter boards to go from Llinhof to Crown or Speed Graphic boards out there.

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linhof-Color-4x5-Monorail-View-Camera-w-Technika-Back-/361444069663?hash=item5427bed11f:g:0gIAAOSwcBhWY2cu

Instructions and specs. (please send M. Butkus $3 if you find this helpful: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/linhof/linhof_color/linhof_color.htm

[JaZ99]

Thank you! I've never heard before about Pressman cameras, I will look into it.
Or perhaps I just flip the standard. But even with flipped standard the access to the locking screws is very limited for lenses shorter than ~120mm.
Anyway, I do love my Graflex, even if it is not the best fit for wide angle.

JaZ

[Jim Galli]

Chamonix 4X5. Gorgeous. Smaller than the crown. Lighter than the crown. You can store a small lens in camera folded by reversing the lensboard before folding. Beautifully made. A pleasure every time I use it. The entire camera wraps up in a large lens wrap. And it has all possible movements. In spades!

[JaZ99]

Chamonix 4X5. Gorgeous. Smaller than the crown. Lighter than the crown. You can store a small lens in camera folded by reversing the lensboard before folding. Beautifully made. A pleasure every time I use it. The entire camera wraps up in a large lens wrap. And it has all possible movements. In spades!

Why reversing is necessary? All my lenses are more or less symmetrical (lengthwise).
Is it possible to slide grafmatic holder behind the GG?

[Corran]

Is it possible to slide grafmatic holder behind the GG?

Yes

[Jim Galli]

Why reversing is necessary? All my lenses are more or less symmetrical (lengthwise).


That way the shutter is inside the camera space folded and you gain a bit more room. Still we're talking small - ish lenses with button like rear cells, not big heavy plasmats with rear cells that extend 2 inches from the shutter. My 150 C-Claron fits inside. My 12CM Angulon also does. Stuff like that with very simple rear groups. Actually the 6.8 Geronar might fit inside reversed. Just talking reversing the lens board itself, not reversing the lens in the board. No big deal.

[Scott Davis]

An older Linhof Technica (like a Tech III), although heavier, would fit your bill. Or some of the Horseman or Wista field cameras.

[Bill_1856]

No camera is perfect -- your Crown is a great place to start. If you change cameras ($$$) over a little thing like the front tilt then you're never gonna find one which meets ALL your needs.

[dsphotog]

I'm a happy Crown Graphic user, if you want more movements, you might look at the Toyo field models, and the Toyo CF.

[Dan Fromm]

Hi, I must admit, that 2 years ago I bought just the cheapest 4x5 kit available on ebay. It was Graflex Crown.
Today I admire ingeniousness of its design. However, I'm curious if there is even better camera for me?

<snip>

What is bothering me:
* no front forward tilt for wide angle lenses and very limited for moderate wide angle

I've been researching for new and better camera. It must be lightweight (less than 5.5 pounds), fast to setup and pack, allows for thick grafmatic holder, have GG folding shade (I forgot the correct term) so no need for dark cloth, and finally it should be stored with one of my lens I have (Fujinon 105/5.6 small version, Caltar 150/5.6 and Fujinon 240/9) installed. And, of course, it must have forward tilt for all lenses, including wide angle ones (I'm thinking about 75mm).

JaZ

Why do you think that the 4x5 Crown Graphic is "very limited for moderate wide angle?" I ask because the camera's minimum flange-to-film distance is 52.4 mm. So it will focus, e.g., the 45/4.5 Apo-Grandagon to infinity with mm to spare. Not only that, the bed drops and the inner and outer bed rails are linked so focusing a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the inner rails is easy.

My 4x5 camera is a Cambo but I shoot 2x3 Graphics. My 35/4.5 Apo-Grandagon focuses easily to infinity on my little Century (cheap version of 2x3 Crown) Graphic, minimum flange-to-film distance 34.9 mm. That lens in a #0 wants 43.2 mm extension at infinity. The 45 in a #0 wants 55.5 mm.

[JaZ99]

No camera is perfect -- your Crown is a great place to start. If you change cameras ($$$) over a little thing like the front tilt then you're never gonna find one which meets ALL your needs.

That's why I created this thread. To make sure that there is no better camera for me.


I'm a happy Crown Graphic user, if you want more movements, you might look at the Toyo field models, and the Toyo CF.

Toyo CF cannot accommodate the grafmatic holder (I've asked the APUG seller, so I'm pretty sure it is true).


Why do you think that the 4x5 Crown Graphic is "very limited for moderate wide angle?" I ask because the camera's minimum flange-to-film distance is 52.4 mm. So it will focus, e.g., the 45/4.5 Apo-Grandagon to infinity with mm to spare. Not only that, the bed drops and the inner and outer bed rails are linked so focusing a lens that makes infinity with the front standard on the inner rails is easy.


I was talking about movements for wide angle. The problem is not the flange distance but front standard design and hard or no access to the locking screws.

[mdarnton]

If wide angle movements are going to be a consideration, then you need to get a small view camera of some sort, not a press camera of any type. We all have our faves of those. I think Cambo offers the most camera, bar none, for the money (a full-bore modern modular view camera with all the bells and whistles for under $200), but it's a bit big. Something like a Nagoaka would work, at 3X+ the price, but when squeezed tight won't have as many movements as a real view with a bag bellows.

[Bill_1856]

JaZ99, I have (and use) a Crown Graphic, Busch Pressman, Super Graphic, and Linhof Technika, (as well as several tripod mounted 4x5s). There's a lot to be said for each of them, but since you've already got the Crown I don't think it's worth changing.

[Jim Jones]

. . . That's why I created this thread. To make sure that there is no better camera for me. . . .

There is always a better camera somewhere, but we have to stop searching and concentrate on shooting sometime. Bill is right in the above post.

[JaZ99]

we have to stop searching and concentrate on shooting sometime

Amen!

Thank you all for comments and informations.

[graywolf]

What is bothering me:
* no front forward tilt for wide angle lenses and very limited for moderate wide angle

You do have forward tilt! Just mount the camera upsidedown on the tripod.

The easiest way to do that is by using the tripod socket under the strap and tilting the tripod head 90 degrees to the side.

[EdSawyer]

Reversing the front standard for tilt is one option, but only if you dont' use the rangefinder. Another might be to swap the front standard from a super graphic or super speed graphic to the Crown. Apparently it's easily done and offers a lot more movements.

Another good camera that is great with wide-angles (even better than the crown possibly) is the Meridian 45. (45A, B, or C were the versions). It also has back movements like the Technika, but it's lighter and more wide-angle friendly.

[Sirius Glass]

I think a hand holdable LF camera is the best of both worlds.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Meridian 45B is late 1940's metal folder that has extensive moves, weighs 5lbs, folds with substantial lenses stored inside and unreversed. It's really good for wide angles with an inner focusing rail. Has posts for back moves similar to a Deardorff Triamapro or Linhof Technika of the same era. Synthetic bellows that hold up extremely well, unlike leather bellows of Busch cameras. I've seen them selling for a pittance, recently. One thing it doesn't have is a Universal or Graflok back, but this never stopped me from using it with a Grafmatic or a Quickload back (some short spacer blocks or washers are all that is needed).

[Rael]

A couple years ago, I made up a little video on flipping the front standard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAoHIZl9MR0

If your crown has a graflex back, any holder can be used with it. It can also have a metal folding shade. Some graflexes have metal shades, others have 3 sided flip down/up shades with cloth sides.

I really like graflexes. I'd use a crown, but I need the builtin shutter of the speed graphics as I have a taste for old and non shuttered lenses.

I just tried this, and then discovered that with the mod, I couldn't close the camera because the reversed knob hits the range finder focus control inside the camera...bummer.

[Richard Johnson]

No other folding 4x5 camera has as much room for lenses as the Crown....

Alan's suggestion of supplementing the camera with an inexpensive but high quality monorail is very good since you can buy top of the line gear for pennies on the dollar... while retaining the Crown for when you need a more compact kit. Note that you'll probably need a heavier tripod to go with it. In a lot of ways a classic monorail is great for beginners because they can see what they are doing when making movements versus some of the compact cameras that obscure what's going on somewhat.

If you have a lot more money then consider the Wista VX or SP; if you have even more money then a Linhof Technika IV or later (the V and Master). These will give you more accessible and wider movements but they weigh more and are more complex. They are all wonderful but sometimes overkill.

The Dick Phillips designed, Chinese-made Chamonix is superb - lots of movements while being very rigid yet lightweight. However most of the time you'll have to remove the lens for folding, the only lenses that would work are the very flat compact 135s. It is the size of the shutter that requires you to reverse it for storage.

Finally, ask yourself why do you need more movements? For many photographers they don't, especially for landscapes in most circumstances. It seems to me that the times you use a front tilt on a landscape it's usually a pretty boring composition - like rocks in the foreground and a horizon line across the middle - and pfft who needs more of those?

I've owned a lot of cameras and very much admire the quality of most of the top mid-century brands but in light of how people use large format cameras nowadays (i.e. not in a studio) I see the Crown and Phillips/Chamonix designs as the epitome of good engineering and practicality. Neither is the ultimate in sheer build quality but both are very intelligent designs that can be built for a reasonable price.