C-41 Separate Bleach and Fixer any kit options?

[Duolab123]

I'm trying to find less than full case quantities of C-41 Chemistry that doesn't use a blix. I finally figured out that Kodak SM chemistry will work right out of the box. No starters for developer and bleach. If you use a running water wash you can skip the stabilizer. Developer, bleach, fixer and final rinse solutions is all you need for a 8 oz Nikor tank or a CPP3 with 18 sheets of 4x5. I found that a company called Unique photo will sell half cases of developer (seem to remember that works out to 4 3 liter batches) Why doesn't somebody sell 5 L kits of chemistry that can be used in manual processing. I don't like the 3 bath kits, I've used them, they work but I still feel like I'm giving something up.

I've tried the "press kits" Stuff is terrible, the shelf life of the powders are not as good as Tetenal liquid chemistry and looks like mud when mixed. Not for my Portra and Ektar!

I'm probably going to just buy a Tetenal 5 L 3 bath kit. I've had excellent results with their E-6. Tetenal is a great resource. I'm just guessing but all the Kodak Rapid Fix now says made in Germany on it, I figure it's from Tetenal, which is fine by me.

I just can't figure out Kodak Alaris, they are to a significant extent still counting on film and paper to fund the Kodak UK pensions yet you have to bend over backwards to buy their product and they won't even cut and package color paper.

What a revoltin' development this is!

[Oren Grad]

Dunno whether you spend time over at APUG, but Ron Mowrey ("Photo Engineer" at APUG), who worked on this stuff at Kodak, really really really really really doesn't like blix.

Anyway, availability of color chemicals in small quantities has been confusing for a long time now. There are some threads at APUG where people periodically come to ask about the current situation, and then there's a flurry of comments about what products you need to buy to get a complete set for small-darkroom use and where you can get them now. There may not be any good answers - for example, AFAIK there aren't any kits with separate bleach and fix - but that's where I'd ask to find out the latest.

[tgtaylor]

Blix is for the RA-4 process and not for C-41. Kodak RA-4 and C-41 chemistry is what you want if quality is a concern.

Thomas

[Oren Grad]

Blix is for the RA-4 process and not for C-41.

The Tetenal and Arista (Freestyle) C-41 kits both use blixes.

[Duolab123]

I just may go see my old childhood friend that runs a top notch camera store and buy some of his Kodak RA (Rapid Access ) C-41 chemistry. He's a great guy and runs a great store PhotoPro in Cedar Rapids, IA. He's where I get my RA-4 chemistry from, Fuji RA-4 works fabulous with thank goodness Fuji crystal archive paper. I would really like to try some of Kodak's premium paper. I'm not going to start cutting my own paper until I have to.

I did see the fellow on APUG on the subject of Blix use with film. I think he outta know. Man I miss those old Kodak 5 L E-6 kits and all their sundries!

Thanks for the kind comments, I figured this was the case, Thanks Mike

[LarsAC]

Did you check out Fuji Hunt chemistry?

Lars

[koraks]

Yeah, fuji hunt, also sold under the Rollei brand. Separate bleach and fix.

[richardman]

I use Kodak LU/LORR with separate bleach and fix. Works great!!

[EdSawyer]

As mentioned, check the sticky thread about this (I think it's on APUG). I like the regular Kodak C-41 (not the LORR/SM/etc.), it's the most economical and least compromised, IMNSHO. Yes, you do need to buy larger quantities (you should see the $150 jug of bleach!) but in general it keeps well, esp. the bleach (which can be nearly infinitely recycled/regenerated). Even given the quantity required for purchase (usually kits to make 5 gals at the smallest), it's still cheaper (and better) than any other commercial option.

[Duolab123]

Thanks to all for the input. I'm going to get the Kodak chemicals, I just really don't like using labs. Too many chances for something to go wrong and I love working in my Darkroom, very therapeutic.
You gotta pay to play!
Mike

[minesix66]

Could someone post the types of chemicals with possibly links. I would like to give it a try myself, but I am having a hard time trying to figure out what chemicals to get, times for processing, and how to mix the chemicals at the right proportions for my 2504 jobo.

[koraks]

Mixing instructions are usually included in the specifications of the chemicals. I'm in Europe so I doubt my sources are very relevant to you, but perhaps some American members can post some clues. C41 is a standardized process so processing parameters are easy to find. Some kits allow for processing at lower temperatures (e.g. the fuji hunt kit) with adjusted (longer) development and bleach time. Fix and stabilize times are non critical.

[tgtaylor]

Here you go - everything you ever wanted to know about processing Kodak C-41:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/retailPhoto/techInfo/zManuals/z131.jhtml?pq-path=12338

Thomas

[Corran]

I scanned some color images a few weeks ago that I developed about 5 years ago with a C-41 press kit. They look perfect, just like the day I developed them. I've moved on to the Tetenal 5L liquid kit and have developed hundreds of sheets of C-41 and E-6. I haven't found a single problem with these kits or blix in general.

Does anyone have actual credible/scientific proof or evidence that a blix is at all an issue? I've asked this before, and other than vague statements that separate bleach/fix is just "better" somehow, I really don't see it. Perhaps 30 years from now but at that point I'm not really worried about it, but I'd like to see some artificial aging tests or something, to back up those claims.

[Tin Can]

Great info there on gas burst sink line with explanations for why to use N2 AND air for different steps. I will be setting up the Kodak way for my ancient colors films.


Here you go - everything you ever wanted to know about processing Kodak C-41:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/retailPhoto/techInfo/zManuals/z131.jhtml?pq-path=12338

Thomas

[Michael R]

This article is another excellent reference (the comments by Ron (Photo Engineer) and Rudi should be read as well).

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum216/138678-converting-c-41-e-6-blix-into-separate-bleach-fixer.html

[Duolab123]

One thing I've come across ALL the Kodak Cat. No.s have changed since Alaris (UK pension fund) got the business. Feb. 2013

http://www.kodak.com/ek/uploadedFiles/Content/Small_Business/Aerial_and_Industrial/Aerial_Imaging_Products_and_Services/Literature_and_Publications/CatNoandPackagingChgs_Feb2013_FG.pdf

The Z manuals are from 2003, all the info is correct but not the catalog numbers and packaging have changed

Some mini-lab chemistry is available in cartridges (SM). This is the set up Fuji uses in their Frontier machines , Develop, Bleach, Fix 1, Fix 2, Stab 1, Stab 2, Stab 3, Dry No water wash.

If you buy the "Real" chemistry for deep tanks, You use more conventional method Develop, Bleach, Fixer, WASH, Final Rinse.

I've used Tetenal E-6, Dev. wash, Color Dev. wash Blix, wash, Final Rinse with excellent results

I've used the "Press Kits" mine were labeled Jobo from Omega Brandess, tried 3 different times. Mixed results NOT impressed at all.

I think that if you mainly develop medium format/35mm in moderate amounts I would probably try the Tetenal liquid kit (Blix)

If you are doing one shot Jobo processing in expert tanks Kodak makes the SM chemicals available in "Tank" packaging Developer min purchase is concentrates to make 8 x 3L batches of Developer, Bleach and Fixer also available in mammoth quantities, using a Jobo you can skip the stabilizer if you wash, just like the Tetenal and Press kits you use a Final Rinse (color version of Photo Flo)

Kodak still makes LORR, (what ever that means) that can be used with good old deep tanks, gaseous burst etc. Least expensive per sq. foot, normal replenishment, Starters etc.

I have looked at the costs and my usage, I can't justify buying 24 liters of Developer, cost isn't my concern, I just know that I would never use it all.

So I will probably cave and buy the Tetenal 5L (Blix) kit. Or based on my previous behavior will go nuts and buy a bunch of chemicals and do it right!

I've read Ron (Photo Engineer) on APUG he sure sounds like he know what he's talking about. I just don't like doing things Half ***ed.

[StoneNYC]

I scanned some color images a few weeks ago that I developed about 5 years ago with a C-41 press kit. They look perfect, just like the day I developed them. I've moved on to the Tetenal 5L liquid kit and have developed hundreds of sheets of C-41 and E-6. I haven't found a single problem with these kits or blix in general.

Does anyone have actual credible/scientific proof or evidence that a blix is at all an issue? I've asked this before, and other than vague statements that separate bleach/fix is just "better" somehow, I really don't see it. Perhaps 30 years from now but at that point I'm not really worried about it, but I'd like to see some artificial aging tests or something, to back up those claims.

When I used to chat privately with Ron (AKA PE/PhotoEngineer) he basically explained that the combination of the bleach/fix together caused an interference with FULL fixing, so you get MOSTLY fixed images that may last 10 years and then begin to have fogging issues from not being totally and completely fixed out. He said if you absolutely have to use a BLIX, make sure you BLIX it longer than recommended and you have a better chance at a longer archivability.

Furthermore, he emphasized that the stabilizer step was essential in archival steps for COLOR stability. Again, good now, 10 years and you may see fading.

He and others he worked on did lots of testing and BLIX was deemed NOT up to the Kodak quality standards required.

Hope that helps.

~Stone

[Corran]

I do normally blix longer than recommended. Obviously can't do too much, within reason.

If some of my color images fog a little after 10 years I'm not going to be all that upset.

[Peter De Smidt]

Couldn't you do a fix step after the blix? Just use regular rapid fix for a short time.

[Duolab123]

When I used to chat privately with Ron (AKA PE/PhotoEngineer) he basically explained that the combination of the bleach/fix together caused an interference with FULL fixing, so you get MOSTLY fixed images that may last 10 years and then begin to have fogging issues from not being totally and completely fixed out. He said if you absolutely have to use a BLIX, make sure you BLIX it longer than recommended and you have a better chance at a longer archivability.

Furthermore, he emphasized that the stabilizer step was essential in archival steps for COLOR stability. Again, good now, 10 years and you may see fading.

He and others he worked on did lots of testing and BLIX was deemed NOT up to the Kodak quality standards required.

Hope that helps.

~Stone

You are absolutely correct on the stabilizer, the Tetena kit does include a stabilizer as well, I plead temporary senior moment.

[tgtaylor]

Although Kodak C-41 Fix went up in price since I last purchased it, it is still cheap notwithstanding that you have to order in quantities of 2:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/898095-REG/kodak_6600027_flexicolor_fixer_and_replenisher.html

You may be able to find single qualities at a mini-lab supply house.

Thomas

[Duolab123]

I was looking at the instruction sheet for the Tetenal Kit from Freestyle. Claim is that you can develop up to 16 rolls per liter, you need to extend process times. Developer increases time by 15 seconds every four rolls, 3'15" first 4 rolls, upto 4 minutes for the 13th through 16th rolls. No big deal Right. BLIX times go from 4 minutes for the first 4 rolls to 15 MINUTES for the last 4.

Not very reassuring, I'm going with Ron The Photo Engineer advice. Now I'm going to go and print.

[paulMD]

Couldn't you do a fix step after the blix? Just use regular rapid fix for a short time.

Sorry for the thread necro but does anyone else have any comment on this approach? I cannot seem to find any way to source kits that use separate bleach+fix anymore so this sounds reasonable.

Would you want to use a hypo-clear/fixer-remover after this, or would that damage the negative? I have a forced washer column so it would be feasible to just wash the snot out of it as well.

[RMiksell]

I would think not. You need the bleach to halogenate the silver and fixer to remove the silver halides. Better to buy c41 bleach and fixer. I use https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/fuji%2Dc%2D41%2Dcn%2D16l%2Dbleach%2D4x2l%2D600005383 for bleach and their c41 developer and fixer too. Plan on spending $350 on initial stock unless you can split a kit with someone. It last a long time though. I'm still using the bleach I bought 2 years ago with no issues.

[Duolab123]

I would think not. You need the bleach to halogenate the silver and fixer to remove the silver halides. Better to buy c41 bleach and fixer. I use https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/fuji%2Dc%2D41%2Dcn%2D16l%2Dbleach%2D4x2l%2D600005383 for bleach and their c41 developer and fixer too. Plan on spending $350 on initial stock unless you can split a kit with someone. It last a long time though. I'm still using the bleach I bought 2 years ago with no issues.

It's been a few months back but I got everything I need for C41 through unique for about 125 bucks. Flexicolor chemistry, you need to get the RA C41 bleach and fixer. These are what is used in minilabs. Bleach is expensive, but if you replenish a 5L bleach will last for literally a couple hundred rolls. Search APUG for this thread it's all there. Unique is unique in letting you buy less than case quantities. Don't but the SM bleach and fixer that only comes special order because no one uses it anymore. LU developer and FINAL RINSE not stabilizer. You will need to wash after fix No hypo clear. You need the bleach and developer starter to make your first batch then you can replenish or use 1 shot in a Jobo.