A Question For Chamonix Owners

[seandavid]

Hi all,

Looking at possibly purchasing a Chamonix 045F1. Having no access to the camera, I've been doing as much research as I can online.

The one complaint that seems to keep popping up is the lack of zero detents.

I'm hoping to hear from some users of Chamonix cameras (not sure if this is the case with all of their models), and learn if this is an issue for you or not? Any other feedback, positive or negative, would be great.


Thanks!

[richardman]

It's a minor pain, but not detrimental. e.g. my photos do not suck more because of it, they just suck for other reasons :-)

[Bill_1856]

My Gandolfi whole-plate doesn't have zero-detents, and it drives me CRAZY!

[SMBooth]

Indents dont bother me. The biggest pain are the slide locks that stop front and rear tilt. There work fine and not a deal breaker but just a bit fiddly to operate.

[Robert Oliver]

No complaints from me.... Love my F1

[seandavid]

Thanks for your replies, guys. I'm being swayed toward the Chamonix...

[StoneNYC]

If you don't like the limiting functions of the f-1 there's always the n-2 :)

I love my 8x10

[seandavid]

If you don't like the limiting functions of the f-1 there's always the n-2 :)

I love my 8x10

Pardon my ignorance... I was under the impression that the 045F1 had more features (added base and asymmetrical tilts of the rear standard) than the 045N-2. What am I missing? (Sorry, a bit of a newb here).

[StoneNYC]

Pardon my ignorance... I was under the impression that the 045F1 had more features (added base and asymmetrical tilts of the rear standard) than the 045N-2. What am I missing? (Sorry, a bit of a newb here).

Perhaps I misspoke.

You said the f-1 doesn't zero out. But the n-2 does as far as I know.

So in that respect it has features you might want. It's really perspective but the n-2 is technically a more advanced camera (by a small margin). But really it's what you want out of the camera.

[Kodachrome25]

Perhaps I misspoke.

You said the f-1 doesn't zero out. But the n-2 does as far as I know.

So in that respect it has features you might want. It's really perspective but the n-2 is technically a more advanced camera (by a small margin). But really it's what you want out of the camera.

Actually, neither the 45N2 or F-1 have zero detents and it is the F-1 that is considered more technically advanced.

I have no issues with the lack of zero detents but I do wish I could lock down the focus once set.

[StoneNYC]

Actually, neither the 45N2 or F-1 have zero detents and it is the F-1 that is considered more technically advanced.

I have no issues with the lack of zero detents but I do wish I could lock down the focus once set.

Thanks Dan, interesting.

Agreed entirely, focus lock is the one missing feature of Chamonix. Not an issue for a normal landscape, but the more creative you get with your image the more important focus lock becomes.

[Gary Tarbert]

hi i have used both the F1 and the N2 , i would say i prefer the F1 for the rear asymmetrical tilts ,Love this feature !! but not a Deal breaker the n2 is a tad lighter , because the price is not that much of a difference i would go the F1

[vinny]

Actually, neither the 45N2 or F-1 have zero detents and it is the F-1 that is considered more technically advanced.

I have no issues with the lack of zero detents but I do wish I could lock down the focus once set.

I had this issue briefly with my n-2 but not after I tightened the hex screw on the focus spindle.

[StoneNYC]

I had this issue briefly with my n-2 but not after I tightened the hex screw on the focus spindle.

Even when tightened, which you don't want to do too tight, if you're at a weird angle like facing up to the moon or for star trails, or down toward the ground, and have a heavy lens, there is going to be focus drift. Unless you carry a hex and wrench it down for every shot, but they should just have a built in lock, really is a lacking feature, tightening works for 99% of the shots, it's the extreme angles that Dan is talking about.

[seandavid]

This is great insight, guys. Thank you.

I didn't realize there was an issue with focus lock. So, StoneNYC, you're saying it (focus lock) only becomes an issue on extreme angles? Your average landscape shot with movements (say, even extreme tilt) would be no problem? Or could that be an issue.

Thanks again!

[Kodachrome25]

I set the tension screw on the focus tighter in the Summer or in warmer locations and looser in the Winter or in colder locations. The only time I do run into drift is when doing macro work straight down. I have thought about how to make a lock on it but have yet to figure it out.

And I always have varying degrees of tools with me depending on manner of carrying the gear and how long from home.

[Michael R]

I just ordered a 045N-2 which has no zero-detent on the front tilt. It's a drawback (for me) but the benefits versus other similar cameras simply outweighed that, so I'll learn to live with it, or rig something up to help. If all else fails I can use my monorail. While there might be some way for Chamonix to design a front tilt detent in somehow, you'd still be stuck without a detent on front swing, which would be difficult to remedy given the camera design, which is similar to the Phillips design. Back tilt has a mechanism for locking it at 90 degrees.

Initially I was more interested in the F1 than the N-2 because of the asymmetric rear tilt than the N-2, but in the end I went for the N-2 because I prefer (at least in theory) the redesigned back swing which allowed them to put some guide rails on the bed for the back. Since I don't swing the back all that often, those rails should make it easier to keep the back square up when moving it forward/backward.

The F1 appears to be based on the N-1 with asymmetric rear tilt. What I really wanted, I suppose, is an F2, but since that doesn't currently exist I went with the N-2. I'll make some aids to help me with the lack of detents.

I was always obsessed with detents, but keep in mind detents are only as good as their calibrations and the precision of everything else on the camera. On a camera of this type they can sometimes end up being more trouble than their worth. I've seen quite a few cameras that were less than perfectly squared up when zeroed in their detents. People assume everything is perfect when they are zeroed, but often they'd actually end up with better alignment by eye or feel. It isn't too hard to fabricate some alignment aids, and for zeroing tilts you can also use a simple inclinometer.

Looking forward to receiving my N-2. I never ever thought I'd buy a wooden camera but here we go.

[Kirk Gittings]

My Phillips doesn't have detents and never missed them.

[vinny]

Michael, the n-1, n-2, and F1 all have a zero "detent" of sorts by engaging the latches. You can easily feel where zero is while under the cloth though.

[StoneNYC]

Ok, I had to pull mine out because like Vinny said, there's a locking mechanism for zeroing the camera, the only part that doesn't perfectly lock is the rear sway, but it's pretty easy to line up both legs to be flush with the base board and evenly placed.

The focus knob can be adjusted to your level of preferred tightness with a hex screw. But it just doesn't lock, yes normal landscapes is fine, it's like Dan said, when shooting straight down with a heavy lens is really the only issue.

Pictures to come...

[StoneNYC]

Front standard tilt zeroing lock and centering dots to line up for the lens to be centered

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Dots for aligning shift/sway to zero

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Hope that explains things. (Mind the Velcro, I added that before I realized how to properly close the camera, it's not needed but I now use it to hold a pencil :) )

This is the 8x10 but the n-2 should be the same to my knowledge. The newer one has individual tilt and rise/fall knobs, my older model has a single knob for tilt and rise/fall together which I have never had an issue with and works much better with gloves than separate knobs do in -10 degree weather ;)

[StoneNYC]

Almost forgot... The focus tightness adjustments we've been talking about is this small hex screw, it tightens the ... Plastic sheath (it's actually another material but I'm blanking on the name, like plastic but takes rubbing and compression better) so it holds the adjustment screw tighter or looser to your preference, but it's not something where you can easily tighten it on location after you have focused, imaging being 3 days from civilization and dropping your hex key in the tall grass or sand!!!

It's really only been an issue for me when I was shooting the moon and once shooting at the beach down at the sand with the heavy 150 SS XL and it was not holding it, I fixed it with a rubber band enough that it held for the shot, but a dedicated lock would REALLY be nice.

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This thing....

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[Sal Santamaura]

My Phillips doesn't have detents and never missed them.But it does have a turnbutton to set the front frame vertical as well as an adjustable stop to set the rear standard vertical.

It also has a focus lock as well as a carrying handle. :D

[Greg]

You can come close to solving the lack of zero detents by carefully aligning your standards and making your own custom alignment lines on your bed and standards. On my 11x14 Chamonix I had to do this in order to use my 183mm Protar V on it. I swear if the front standard was out of alignment by 2 degrees I'd get no coverage in 1, 2, or 3 of the corners of the film. I did this by taking the back off, stopping down the lens, and visually aligning the standards by making sure that the light coming through the lens cut off equally in each of the 4 corners. Does that make sense?.. so much easier to do than to explain. Lot more accurate alignment marks (better than the alignment dots on the Chamonix) can be had by aligning the standards and making alignment marks with the blade of an X-Acto knife and fill in in the fraction of a mm cuts with colored paint (small cans available from a hobby store). I really took my time and made those very thin alignment lines with colored paint... easy to use and didn't ruin the finish of the camera.

Greg

[Robert Oliver]

I mis-typed on my original post... I meant to say I love my N-1. I don't have an F1

[Michael R]

Michael, the n-1, n-2, and F1 all have a zero "detent" of sorts by engaging the latches. You can easily feel where zero is while under the cloth though.

I didn't know there were latches on the front standard. Anyhow there will be a learning curve for me since I haven't used a camera of this type before.

Edit: and it appears to have just arrived, so I guess I'll be up late playing.

[Two23]

I've owned several 4x5 cameras. The Chamonix is my favorite. (I have the 045N-1)


Kent in SD

[seandavid]

Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to reply with all of your insight (and pics, StoneNYC). This forum is the best.

Sean

[dave_whatever]

Bit of clarity on this alleged "lack of zero detents" on the 045F1:

Front tilt - no 'detent' but has a lock which can only be engaged at the zero position. I.e. best of both worlds, you can put only a tiny amount of tilt on without fighting a detend, but if you're not using tilt you can lock it at zero.
Front rise/fall - zero mark on that front standard (calibrated for centre-drilled boards, add your own dot 5mm lower for normal offset boards)
Front shift - zero marks, lock if shared with front swing
Front Swing - markings only.
Rear base tilt - has a lock/bar which stops it at 90deg if you remove it it is free.
Real asymmetric tilt - has a zero detent, can only be moved if the lock/bar is disengaged.
Rear swing - no detent but if you keep the sliding rear tilt knobs/axles either fully back or fully forward in their tracks (depending on how long a lens you're using) you effectively get a reliable zero point.

Basically the only one which does not have a zero detent OR any kind of practical mechanical zeroing ability which can impact on shooting is the front swing. You're setting it by eye only, but even with extreme care using the dots on the standard is not that prescise with superwide lenses this could lead to a lack of parallelism, especially if you're trying to use front shift without moving your swing, which is virtually impossible. I drew a sharp pencil line on my front track where the hole I normally use for wides is. This is really the only thing that bothers me about the Chamonix, but is part and parcel of the flexible and lightweight design, and is shared by other Chamonix models, the Shen-Hao knockoffs, and the Phillips. For most uses with lenses say 90mm or longer zeroing by eye is fine, but I have some shots on 6x12 with a 65mm lens that I think have some unintended swing and sharpness across the frame suffers. It would not be my camera of choice for regularly shooting things like the 47mm XL.

I once saw a chamonix on the german eBay site where the seller had made a wooden block that screwed into the front track holes with a wingnut, and the top of this block contained a groove to hold the front standard exactly parallel, which you then screwed the front standard into, effectively locking the front standard swing out. The block caused about 20mm of rise, which presumably you just re-zero your rise 20mm lower. I wish I'd saved the photo of it. This seemed like a good solution but I have not got round to making one myself yet

[N Dhananjay]

Detents are a mixed blessing. Any kind of detent mechanism will let youzero easily but small adjustments will be problematic because the standard will have a tendency to drop back into the detent setting. The markings are pretty good at getting things zeroed in. Also, the camera is designed to operate by feel. Set up the camera with everything zeroed, get under the dark cloth and pass your hand over the entire camera to get a feel for where everything is. You will find that the standards also have a reference surface for setting things by feel. Once you get the hang of things, it is very fast to set up and adjust - you just have to work by feel and with attention to the ground glass. I rather like the fact that there is no detent system.

The focus creep is a bit of an issue when the camera is pointed significantly up or down with a heavy lens and a focus lock is the one thing I miss. You can adjust the tightness of the focus mechanism which helps quite a bit but there is that nagging thought that interferes with work. To me, that is the real cost. Having said that, it affects things only for that occasional shot, for me, and I can usually find some way to work around it.

It is a good design and is meant for fast working by feel in the field with minimum cerebral intrusion.

Cheers, DJ

[seandavid]

Bit of clarity on this alleged "lack of zero detents" on the 045F1:

Front tilt - no 'detent' but has a lock which can only be engaged at the zero position. I.e. best of both worlds, you can put only a tiny amount of tilt on without fighting a detend, but if you're not using tilt you can lock it at zero.
Front rise/fall - zero mark on that front standard (calibrated for centre-drilled boards, add your own dot 5mm lower for normal offset boards)
Front shift - zero marks, lock if shared with front swing
Front Swing - markings only.
Rear base tilt - has a lock/bar which stops it at 90deg if you remove it it is free.
Real asymmetric tilt - has a zero detent, can only be moved if the lock/bar is disengaged.
Rear swing - no detent but if you keep the sliding rear tilt knobs/axles either fully back or fully forward in their tracks (depending on how long a lens you're using) you effectively get a reliable zero point.

Basically the only one which does not have a zero detent OR any kind of practical mechanical zeroing ability which can impact on shooting is the front swing. You're setting it by eye only, but even with extreme care using the dots on the standard is not that prescise with superwide lenses this could lead to a lack of parallelism, especially if you're trying to use front shift without moving your swing, which is virtually impossible. I drew a sharp pencil line on my front track where the hole I normally use for wides is. This is really the only thing that bothers me about the Chamonix, but is part and parcel of the flexible and lightweight design, and is shared by other Chamonix models, the Shen-Hao knockoffs, and the Phillips. For most uses with lenses say 90mm or longer zeroing by eye is fine, but I have some shots on 6x12 with a 65mm lens that I think have some unintended swing and sharpness across the frame suffers. It would not be my camera of choice for regularly shooting things like the 47mm XL.

I once saw a chamonix on the german eBay site where the seller had made a wooden block that screwed into the front track holes with a wingnut, and the top of this block contained a groove to hold the front standard exactly parallel, which you then screwed the front standard into, effectively locking the front standard swing out. The block caused about 20mm of rise, which presumably you just re-zero your rise 20mm lower. I wish I'd saved the photo of it. This seemed like a good solution but I have not got round to making one myself yet

Dave,

Thank you for your detailed response! Your website was the first place I came across when researching the Chamonix. Thanks for all of this info!

I do plan on working my way down to wider lenses eventually. What would you say the widest lens you would use with the F1 would be?

[cjdewey]

The F1 is the only LF camera I've used, and only for the last six months. As far as I can tell, the front and rear locks let you quickly zero the tilt, and the painted marks on the base make it pretty easy to zero the swing (or close enough) by eyeball. Front shift and swing is controlled by just the one bolt, so adjusting *only* shift *or* swing may be frustrating. These and other tradeoffs I'm happy to make for a camera that's small and light enough to pack for miles uphill, and miles back downhill.

[seandavid]

Detents are a mixed blessing. Any kind of detent mechanism will let youzero easily but small adjustments will be problematic because the standard will have a tendency to drop back into the detent setting. The markings are pretty good at getting things zeroed in. Also, the camera is designed to operate by feel. Set up the camera with everything zeroed, get under the dark cloth and pass your hand over the entire camera to get a feel for where everything is. You will find that the standards also have a reference surface for setting things by feel. Once you get the hang of things, it is very fast to set up and adjust - you just have to work by feel and with attention to the ground glass. I rather like the fact that there is no detent system.

The focus creep is a bit of an issue when the camera is pointed significantly up or down with a heavy lens and a focus lock is the one thing I miss. You can adjust the tightness of the focus mechanism which helps quite a bit but there is that nagging thought that interferes with work. To me, that is the real cost. Having said that, it affects things only for that occasional shot, for me, and I can usually find some way to work around it.

It is a good design and is meant for fast working by feel in the field with minimum cerebral intrusion.

Cheers, DJ


Great description here, DJ. Thanks for this!

[dave_whatever]

Dave,

Thank you for your detailed response! Your website was the first place I came across when researching the Chamonix. Thanks for all of this info!

I do plan on working my way down to wider lenses eventually. What would you say the widest lens you would use with the F1 would be?

The widest lens I would use personally? Hard to say really, I don't own anything wider than 65mm. Personally, I think I've got my ability to judge the parallelism OK for use with 65mm with care, which is fine for my occasional needs, but I feel better shooting 65mm on a rigid body (my 65mm nikkor f/4 is now on a chinese rigid 5x4" with helical) but if I was regularly using anything wider than 65mm then I'd be looking at using a setsquare or building a parallel front standard lockout block or similar. So it depends on how careful you can be and how much effort you're prepared to put into making it work. I was much happier shooting my 65mm when I had an Ebony RSW45, so if I was a fulltime ultrawide shooter I'd probably pass on the chamonix and get an Ebony or Walker XL, or at least something with a hard mechanical zero position for both front and rear swing and tilt.

[StoneNYC]

The Chamonix cameras in my experience highly underrate their ability to shoot wide angle, for example with the basic 22mm reducing board I'm able to shoot a 65mm on my 8x10!!!

That's crazy, I'm able to shoot a 90mm without reducing board. I suspect the 80mm SS XL would be fine, without reducing board too, and would of course make more sense shooting that since it almost covers.

I hope that you get it soon so that you can give us your own report.

[dave_whatever]

I don't think anyone is questioning the ability of the design to focus very short lenses. Whether the user can set the camera up reliably with the level of parallelism required for ultrawide lenses is another matter however.

[seandavid]

Reviving this, as I'm hopefully getting closer to ordering my camera (the Canadian dollar is terrible!!!)

Ground glass... What do you guys recommend? Did any of you opt for the Chamonix Fresnel?


Thanks!

[StoneNYC]

Reviving this, as I'm hopefully getting closer to ordering my camera (the Canadian dollar is terrible!!!)

Ground glass... What do you guys recommend? Did any of you opt for the Chamonix Fresnel?


Thanks!

I believe it comes standard now. I like it very much and sometimes wish they had included one on the 8x10. The 4x5 is really nice and clear and bright.

[seandavid]

I believe it comes standard now. I like it very much and sometimes wish they had included one on the 8x10. The 4x5 is really nice and clear and bright.

Awesome. Thanks again for all of your advice!