The Van Dyke Brownprint Thread

[tgtaylor]

The VDB is an absolutely beautiful process. Here's one that I printed this afternoon and toned with palladium. The print is waaaayyy better that the scan below: I broke down this afternoon and paid for a VueScan license for my aging Epson 3200 and I need time to master the software.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5746/22830376529_fbf3052b32_z.jpg

Note, however, the thin white cloud-like line in the center portion of the sky. Rather than a cloud (several real ones are apparent) I think it is a result of folding back the paper too aggressively when checking the exposure. It also appears on the un-toned print but is slightly offset to the left. Nothing shows on the negative. Even when you think you have things down you learn something new:rolleyes:

Thomas

[koraks]

That's a beautiful print indeed! VdB is a rewarding process I find, even though I'm often frustrated at the loss of shadow detail in my prints.
Is the real print of the slightly reddish tint I'm seeing on the screen? It's very beautiful, a bit like partial gold toning.

[tgtaylor]

Thanks. The color of the print is a light brownish red, not as intense in the scan above and particularly noticeable in the sky region. The image is very sharp as you can tell from the above and the process seems to have the ability of rendering a sharper image than the salt print. I toned this in a palladium solution for 11 minutes so I assume that it went to completion.

My current monitor, a Dell 27" model E2414H that came bundled with the desktop, cannot be user calibrated as my former Lacie could. I'll probably bite the bullet one day and get a model than can.

Paper is dry - time to make another VDB!

Thomas

Thomas

[Jim Noel]

That's a beautiful print indeed! VdB is a rewarding process I find, even though I'm often frustrated at the loss of shadow detail in my prints.
Is the real print of the slightly reddish tint I'm seeing on the screen? It's very beautiful, a bit like partial gold toning.

If you are losing shadow detail you need to either adjust your negatives to suit the process, or if the DR of the negatives is already correct, reduce your printing time slightly.

[koraks]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm aware of the parameters involved. I print from xray negatives mostly, developed by eye, so no particularly precise DR control going on. Getting just the right amount of shadow detail with VdB (particularly after drying) while retaining good dmax as well as highlight detail is quite iffy. It's probably a bit easier with digital negatives and a standardized processing regime, but even then variables such as rh and drying time tend to complicate matters. Overall silver gelatine is a lot easier to contact print in my opinion than VdB - or even cyanotype for that matter. Dry down is a difficult animal to factor in, I find.

Thomas, it's a gorgeous print indeed by the looks of it. I haven't done a lot of salt printing but I didn't notice much difference in detail between a salt print and VdB from the same negative. Sizing and texture obviously have a huge impact, but that's kind of obvious.

[tgtaylor]

...Getting just the right amount of shadow detail with VdB (particularly after drying) while retaining good dmax as well as highlight detail is quite iffy. It's probably a bit easier with digital negatives and a standardized processing regime, but even then variables such as rh and drying time tend to complicate matters. Overall silver gelatine is a lot easier to contact print in my opinion than VdB - or even cyanotype for that matter. Dry down is a difficult animal to factor in, I find.


I use the sun as the UV source. Using the sun allows me to dodge and burn selected areas just like with a silver gelatin. For example in the image above the exposure for the first 20 minutes was in the open shade and the final 4'25" was facing the sun while dodging the hotel's facade. This allowed the side of the hotel and surrounding buildings, grass, and wagon to print out as shown while holding detail in the naturally dark facade. The areas that I wanted to appear a zone 1 black, like in the open window on the 2d floor of the hotel and the appropriate window panes in the buildings surrounding the hotel, printed out just right. Each image is different of course but keep the dodging and burning tools handy if you use the sun as the UV source.

Thomas

[koraks]

Yeah, burning and dodging is a good idea, although it won't work very well so far with the exposure unit I'm using (a face tanner), as it's a bit too diffuse at the distance I use it. But good advice nonetheless.

[koraks]

http://www.koraks.nl/galleries/8x10_archives/M810_151_VdB_MG_9834.JPG
Here's one I just made; I posted the portrait (well, another version of the same session) before as a scan. The photo of this print does the original little justice; the hue is about accurate, but the tonality is harsher and it has a grainy look that is not as pronounced (or even absent) in the original.
It also illustrates my issues with shadow detail; in the wet print, there was ample detail in the jeans just below her hands. Upon drying, nothing is left of it. I could print it lighter (and lose the highlights), but it would just result in a weak overall print. This was with straight VdB sensitizer and selenium toned before fixing. It's a very contrasty negative though; green xray film developed in Moersch Finol for about 5-6 minutes.

[tgtaylor]

Here's an un-toned VDB:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5829/22890749779_09970ca6c3_z.jpg

The front of both the saloon and barbershop required extensive dodging and the grassy foreground was burned in with the lower left requiring a little more. The smudge appearing in the top right was from handing during processing. Periodically I lift the print to drain during processing and this smudge, the first that I have ever experienced, taught me to lift at the non-sky corners.

Thomas

[Wayne]

Nice. A print thread. VDB is a bonus. I have one somewhere...

[tgtaylor]

An untoned VDB:

http://www.spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Bodie_Methodists_VDB_Untoned.331135834_large.jpg

I palladium toned the 2d print of this negative but matted it. I'll try to scan and post.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

A new one from Spirits of Silver:

http://www.spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Swazee_Hotel_Bodie.335155823_large.jpg

Swayze Hotel, Bodie 2015.

Palladium-toned VDB. This is a reprint of the flicker image in the first post above which I deleted.

Thomas

[blindpig]

Thomas,really liked your prints and the old buildings are wonderful as well.keep up the good work...
Don

[tgtaylor]

Thanks Don. I've been to Bodie countless times and it always is amazing to me that the buildings are still standing each time I arrive. At an altitude of over 8300 feet Bodie is situated in a rather barren and treeless location and exposed not only to the full fury of winter storms but also to transient summer winds that can appear suddenly and without warning and blow you and your tripod over.

Here's the old schoolhouse that I photographed on a trip about a month back:

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Schoolhouse_Bodie.336125920_large.jpg

For me, the Brownprint and Kallitype processes compliment the buildings of Bodie.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

This is the palladium toned version of Bodie Methodist:

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Bodie_Methodists_VDB_Palladium_Toned.340150325_large.jpg

I posted the un-toned version of it earlier in this thread. Both are good but I like the toned version a little better.

Thomas

[Jim Noel]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm aware of the parameters involved. I print from xray negatives mostly, developed by eye, so no particularly precise DR control going on. Getting just the right amount of shadow detail with VdB (particularly after drying) while retaining good dmax as well as highlight detail is quite iffy. It's probably a bit easier with digital negatives and a standardized processing regime, but even then variables such as rh and drying time tend to complicate matters. Overall silver gelatine is a lot easier to contact print in my opinion than VdB - or even cyanotype for that matter. Dry down is a difficult animal to factor in, I find.

Thomas, it's a gorgeous print indeed by the looks of it. I haven't done a lot of salt printing but I didn't notice much difference in detail between a salt print and VdB from the same negative. Sizing and texture obviously have a huge impact, but that's kind of obvious.

I just completes a seried of 14 VDB printed from x-ray negatives. In order to get bright textured highlights and good shadow detail the density of the highlights must be far greater than is usually visualized under the red safelight. Try viewing the film from the base side rather than the emulsion and the negative will get closer to ideal. As with panchromatic film, the emulsion will appear almost impenetrable from the emulsion side, when the base side will show appropriate density. I have only been doing this since I began photography by developing under a red safelight in the 30's. it works. When I then put the negative under a densitometer the HL densities run 2.1 to 2.4 (7 to 8 stops), or seven or eight steps in the Zone System. A very appropriate scale for VDB.

[koraks]

Yeah, I came to that insight as well. I develop until the highlights look pretty much blacked out on the front side (I use double sided film) and shadow detail is clearly pronounced on the backside. Maybe I should try to push it more but having done so a few times in the past, I ended up with blocked highlights, so I'm definitely pushing the boundaries. The negatives I make print well with new cyanotype requiring a few drops of acetic acid, suggesting the contrast is more than sufficient for VdB (perhaps even a bit overboard!)

[tgtaylor]

I wonder how archival a palladium toned print is compared to a gold or platinum toned?

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

Saloon & Barbershop - Bodie, Ca.

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Sam_Leon_Saloon_and_Barbershop.28103730_large.jpg

Palladium-toned Brownprint.

Thomas

[Rael]

Saloon & Barbershop - Bodie, Ca.

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Sam_Leon_Saloon_and_Barbershop.28103730_large.jpg

Palladium-toned Brownprint.

Thomas

May I ask what paper that is printed on? Fantastic detail..

[tgtaylor]

Rael - It's printed on Bergger Cot-320 which I've been using exclusively for alternative printing for well over a year now.

Thomas

[sanking]

I wonder how archival a palladium toned print is compared to a gold or platinum toned?

Thomas

Archival qualities Should be similar between palladium and platinum since the two metals are equally noble. It really depends on your toner, and how much of the silver metal you replaced in toning with the more noble metal.

Consider also gold toning for vandyke as gold is even more noble than palladium and platinum, and the bluish/black image gold toning is highly distinctive.
http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke

Sandy

[tgtaylor]

Thanks for the input Sandy. From all the hype about platinum prints, I would have thought that it would be the more noble of the three. That's another reason to revisit the chemistry textbooks I have in the storage locker. Although this print doesn't show it as much, I have settled on palladium toner for this subject which I think complements it better that platinum or gold would.

Mostly due to the blank sky, I'm not satisfied with this negative and meant to re-shoot it on my last trip to Bodie. However I arrived tad too late as this is a morning shot when the sun rises above the ridge-line to the east where the mines are located providing frontal light on the saloon and barbershop. On the day that I shot this negative a 60+mph wind gust came unexpectedly roaring up Main street and I foolishly grabbed for the rolling case's foam insert instead of for the camera and the the wind knocked over the camera damaging the front rise which I had to have repaired by Toyo (Mamiya America).

Thomas

[drgoose]

Calumet C1 8x10 camera
Besler 9 inch f/3.5 projector lens
3 1/4 x 4 1/4 speed graphic body shutter.
Fuji HR X ray film developed in Rodinal 1:100 7 minutes
Van Dyke Brown on Bergger Cot 320 after exposure but before wash

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1631/24580668710_8242837201_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ds7mqW)X ray film019-2 (https://flic.kr/p/Ds7mqW) by Joaquin Barbara (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97401946@N07/), on Flickr

[tgtaylor]

Cathedral Rock & Merced - Yosemite National Park, 2016.

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Cathedral_Rock_and_Merced.177223423_large.jpg

5x7 Ilford FP4+negative printed as a palladium-toned Van Dyke Brownprint on Bergger Cot-320. Nikkor 120mm -SW lens.

Thomas

[Rael]

Not the best scan in the world...

https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7434/27508050525_af25801927_z.jpg

5x7 FP4+, no-name petzval. Developed in LC-110, printed on Bergger Cot-320

[Jim Noel]

Archival qualities Should be similar between palladium and platinum since the two metals are equally noble. It really depends on your toner, and how much of the silver metal you replaced in toning with the more noble metal.

Consider also gold toning for vandyke as gold is even more noble than palladium and platinum, and the bluish/black image gold toning is highly distinctive.
http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke

Sandy

I agree. I don't tone all VDB's,but use gold when I do.It generally adds a life to prints which is not evident to me with Pt or Pd toners.
I have never had a problem with longevity of untoned prints. Ihave some which are 25-30 years old with no sign of fading.

[tgtaylor]

Cathedral Rocks - Yosemite National Park, 2016.

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Cathedral_Rocks.180205724_large.2

Palladium-toned Van Dyke Brownprint. 8x10 Fuji Acros negative printed on Bergger cot-320; 240mm Schneider Symmar-S.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

I agree. I don't tone all VDB's,but use gold when I do.It generally adds a life to prints which is not evident to me with Pt or Pd toners.
I have never had a problem with longevity of untoned prints. Ihave some which are 25-30 years old with no sign of fading.

My idea is to choose the toner according to the image and what I am attempting to depict. For example, for the image Wildcat Fall in the Kallitype thread I chose to tone with gold because I wanted a dark tonality with no browns and that's what I got. Originally I planned to tone Cathedral Rocks with gold but I underexposed the print and it came out too light and red. Thinking that the sensitizer had aged (I mixed it at the end of last year and didn't keep it refrigerated which is supposed to prolong its working life up to a year) I planned to reprint it after I had made a new batch but ended-up reprinting it on the spur of the moment with the old sensitizer - after all Cathedral Rock and Merced above was printed just a few days earlier and it (printed from a FP4+ negative) came out a tad too dark and I will have to reprint it. The former was printed off an Acros negative and needed more exposure. I normally print alternatives from Ilford Delta 100 and need to pay strict attention to the various data sheets when not printing from Delta.

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

For the past couple of years I have been matting my prints on 4-ply museum board complete with cut window and storing them in ClearFile sleeve protectors in print racks where I occasionally pick one out to examine. Here's one picked at random a couple of days ago that I haven’t looked at in a while:

http://spiritsofsilver.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Schoolhouse_Bodie.336125920_large.jpg

According to my field notes the Delta 100 negative was shot on 30 October 2015 with a 480mm Apo-Ronar at f45-⅓ for 1/15th second and printed shortly thereafter as a palladium-toned VDB on Bergger Cot-320 paper.

Thomas