Confused about lensless photography and 4x5 camera

[tonyowen]

From various LFP fora and glancing at many hyperlinked (related) web pages I understand that pin-hole images can be obtained with 'standard' 4x5 cameras.

However, I've tried unsuccessfully to mock up such a system with my Calumet CC401 camera.

Two 'lenses' were made - one with a 1mm drill, the other with a small sewing needle.

According to what I have 'read' the large hole should focus within the lenght of my extended camera rail
and
the needle hole focus should be with the camera standards almost fully closed up.

Total failure - I get no image and no indication of a latent image within or without the focussing range(s).

Question - does the extremely small aperture (ie f300???) prevent an image being seen on the GG screen??

Question - if so, how does one view an image?

Question - and how does one determine that the image to be recorded is in focus?

I'm more than happy to express my ignorance, but my curiosity outweighs any embarrassment.

[Moderator, if this posting is on the wrong forum please move]

regards

Tony

[Ben Syverson]

Tony, you probably won't be able to see an image of the GG. Pinhole photographers get good at visualizing the field of view and framing by eye. Some pinhole cameras even have two lines on the top that indicate the field of view. You can also use an external viewfinder.

You don't need to worry about focus; pinhole has no focus. There is infinite depth of field. Racking the front standard forward will increase the focal length (zoom in), while racking it back will reduce (zoom out).

Hope this helps!

[Jac@stafford.net]

Question - does the extremely small aperture (ie f300???) prevent an image being seen on the GG screen??

Question - if so, how does one view an image?

Question - and how does one determine that the image to be recorded is in focus?

Sorry to begin answering with questions, but more information is needed.
How long an exposure did you try? What film or paper were you exposing?
Was the paper or film possibly loaded backwards?
How far was the bellows extended? (longer == smaller effective aperture)

For your camera a .017 inch [0.4mm] (F/250) pinhole should work with the bellows extended ~6". It is not possible to focus on the ground glass, so many of us use a simple framing device and/or guess!

[Tin Can]

Read all here.

http://www.mrpinhole.com/

[tonyowen]

How long an exposure did you try? What film or paper were you exposing?
Was the paper or film possibly loaded backwards? How far was the bellows extended? (longer == smaller effective aperture)

No exposure, no film or paper, minima and maxima bellows extension.

Just experimenting with 'pin hole(s) and GG

regards
Tony

[tonyowen]

Thanks to all respondents.
My ignorance (on this subject) is now lessened.
Not certain where I go to from here even with my asked for info.

regards

Tony

[Tin Can]

A pinhole is a lens. When I hold a 1 mm pinhole up to one eye and look at a bright scene I can see sharply without my glasses and I have extreme myopia.

[Greg Miller]

You've done your homework. Time to go out and shoot. Pinhole photography takes experience. Go out, make some images, and learn from them. The world won't end if you screw up. That's part of the thrill of pinhole photography - happy accidents (rememebr that plenty of pinhole photographer use things like oatmeal boxes with no viewfinder). Pinhole photography isn't about perfection. So just go out and shoot. That will be your fastest and best way to learn.

[tonyowen]

You've done your homework. Time to go out and shoot.
I know, I know and I will
regards
Tony

[Andrew Plume]

http://www.f295.org/main/forum/

may be the site to follow :):)

regards
andrew

[pdh]

Haven't f295 forums been shut (or are at least slated to) ?

(see http://www.f295.org/main/showthread.php?19884-F295-Announcement&p=129979&viewfull=1#post129979
)

[Barry Kirsten]

Sadly f295 is no longer being maintained and presumably will die away, however people are still managing to post there. It is still possible to access the site and its marvelous archive.

[tonyowen]

Sadly f295 is no longer being maintained and presumably will die away, however people are still managing to post there. It is still possible to access the site and its marvelous archive.
I tried to register, but was informed that it was no longer possible - which means some of the infrrmation will not be available to me.
regards
Tony

[Maris Rusis]

It is possible to see a ground-glass image using a pinhole. But you may not want to do it. With my Tachihara 8x10 camera I can see sunlit scenes at f600 by using a really light-proof focussing cloth and staying under it for upwards of a minute to let my eyes dark adapt. Holding the breath limits condensation on the ground-glass. When the sense of heat and suffocation becomes too much I have to get out and gasp for some blessed air.

[photonsoup]

Using pinholes made from aluminum soda cans and a sewing needle, I can view the image on the glass with a wide angle field of view. The narrower the view the dimmer the image. Most of my pinholes wind up being about 1/2mm, so I measure from the glass to the pinhole in mm and multiply by 2 to get an approximate f-stop for calculating exposure. So far with B&W negative film I've done pretty good.

[Jim Jones]

Since much pinhole photography is done with the camera mounted on a tripod, Replacing the ideal pinhole with a larger one just for framing becomes practical with most large format cameras. The image with an oversize pinhole will be unsharp and dim, but perhaps adequate for framing. Replacing the pinhole with a suitable simple lens will provide a brighter and sharper image. Many such lenses are sold by http://www.surplusshed.com/. Unlike a pinhole, this lens will require focusing. These lenses and extra pinholes can be mounted in lens boards. For many large format cameras, lens boards can be improvised from foam core or mat board. Two screw-in filters with the glass removed can be the basis of another way of changing pinholes. One filter is mounted to a lens board, and the other used to retain a disc with the pinhole centrally mounted. Also, a slide-in pinhole holder can be mounted to a lens board.

[Barry Kirsten]

I tried to register, but was informed that it was no longer possible - which means some of the infrrmation will not be available to me.
regards
Tony

No, you won't be able to register, but I don't see why the various threads and posts would be closed to viewing.

[tonyowen]

No, you won't be able to register, but I don't see why the various threads and posts would be closed to viewing.

The option to view the threads and post is very limited (ie can't open thumbnails) albeit some information is accessible
regards
Tony

[tonyowen]

It is possible to see a ground-glass image using a pinhole. But you may not want to do it. using a really light-proof focussing cloth and staying under it for upwards of a minute to let my eyes dark adapt. Holding the breath limits condensation on the ground-glass. .
Thank you for the GG solution - I have a very dense changing bag that I used to focus. While temperature is not a problem here in the northern hemisphere though claustaphobia might be.
regards
Tony

[tonyowen]

camera mounted on a tripod, Replacing the ideal pinhole with a larger one just for framing becomes practical with most large format cameras. Two screw-in filters with the glass removed can be the basis of another way of changing pinholes. One filter is mounted to a lens board, and the other used to retain a disc with the pinhole centrally mounted. Also, a slide-in pinhole holder can be mounted to a lens board.

Brilliant (pun intended) why are the obvious and simple solutions often missed.

regards

Tony

[SMBooth]

Q1 Almost
Q2 I have a swappable pinhole with a 4mm hole, i use that to see on ground glass
Q3 Focus is constant, everything in view is in focus, just soft.

[Andrew Plume]

check out any stuff written (or on) Tom Persinger

and also

http://phototechmag.com/tom-persinger-the-f295-historic-process-workbook/

andrew

[xkaes]

I've got some info on my pinholes at www.subclub.org/fujinon or www.subclub.org/fujinon/index.htm

Check out the bottom of the MY GEAR page. You might be surprised at how small the pinholes are and how long an exposure you need!

There is also some info on how to attach the pinholes to your shutter. I'm still working out how to get my filters attached at the same time.

[xkaes]

There are "companies" that make pinholes cut with lasers in flat aluminum sheets. They tell you what the size of the hole is, such as .025". Then you can figure out the optimal focal length and the f-stop. Then all you need is a ruler to measure the bellows extension. You can use a hand-held meter but you will have to do some calculating since most meters don't go to f455. I have a set of about eight but I don't recall the name of the place where I got them. I'm sure an internet search would reveal it. Still you have to figure out a way to attached these to your shutter.

[pdh]

If you're the sort of person who likes reading books rather than internetting, http://www.amazon.com/Pinhole-Photography-Historic-Technique-Application/dp/0240810473 is a bit of a "classic" resource. Some of examples of the inventiveness of lensless photography are rather breathtaking.

[photonsoup]

Sadly f295 is no longer being maintained and presumably will die away, however people are still managing to post there. It is still possible to access the site and its marvelous archive.

If you go to archive.org you can use the " wayback machine" function to view a website how looked at a particular time. Thus the archive should still be viewable even after the actual site is long gone.

[StoneNYC]

There are "companies" that make pinholes cut with lasers in flat aluminum sheets. They tell you what the size of the hole is, such as .025". Then you can figure out the optimal focal length and the f-stop. Then all you need is a ruler to measure the bellows extension. You can use a hand-held meter but you will have to do some calculating since most meters don't go to f455. I have a set of about eight but I don't recall the name of the place where I got them. I'm sure an internet search would reveal it. Still you have to figure out a way to attached these to your shutter.

+1

In addition, you have to understand "pinhole" is often smaller than a pinhole, the two holes you made were too big for 4x5.

I built an 11x14 pinhole with a 400mm bellows draw using the optimal pinhole size which was the smallest regularly available needle.

Most people don't know that the needle sizes for sewing needles are usually actually the mm of the needle, I think they call it mn for "Metric Number" or something, it goes back to when they were sorting out Singer's use of the American sizing from the European sizing. But that's how you find the needle size if you don't own a laser...

Anyway, at 4x5 the hole you need is MUCH smaller than any regularly available needle diameters, so getting a laser cut one would make a lot of sense.

You can essentially use any size pinhole but you're going to get the best results by using the appropriate bellows draw with the appropriate pinhole size for best sharpness. The light waves have to all line up properly.

There are a few sites that help you calculate it, and some that probably have a "calculator" for it. There doesn't seem to be an app for actually calculating the bellows draw/pinhole ratio but once it's built there are a few apps for exposure calculation but before you buy into those, look at the "reciprocity timer" app, it's really good and the basic package before the upgrades is pretty much all you need. It's a great app and a member here created it.

That's what I use for all my long exposure work.

That's the other thing, these are long exposures if you're using the proper pinhole size for optimal sharpness you shouldn't need a "shutter" except a piece of tape, your exposures are going to be in the 30 seconds to 30 minute range. Not like 2 seconds where you have to worry about a shutter.

You CAN use wider aperture sizes that would expose faster, but then the image wouldn't be very sharp.

Again don't forget about the reciprocity factor, a 30 second metered exposure on most films would be a lot more when you add in reciprocity, hence using that app I mentioned.

Anyway good luck, hope that helped a bit.

~Stone

[vinny]

Stone means "a lot more"

[StoneNYC]

Stone means "a lot more"

Thanks, I edited that, glad you caught it, yes a lot more.

[tonyowen]

Still you have to figure out a way to attached these to your shutter.
Pin hole photography means exposure of many seconds BEFORE taking into account reciprocal failure.
[exposure meter reading of 1/15s @ f16 - equates to 16s exposure for a f254 pin hole, plus a (circa) 10x addition for reciprocal failure -> totals 2m 8s exposure]
So why do you need a shutter and hence the problems of attaching the pin hole to the shutter?
Simplicity means a blank lens panel with suitable sized central hole over which, or into which, the pin hole (plate) is secured.
Exposure is by withdrawing and replacing the DDS, and/or using a cloth over the entire front standard, before and after exposure takes place.
regards

Tony

[Darko Pozar]

Zone Plate is another type of pinhole where the exposures are 4 stops faster than a conventional pinhole. A zone plate is a diffractive optic that consists of several radially symmetric rings called zones. Zones alternate between opaque and transparent, and are spaced so that light transmitted by the transparent zones constructively interferes at the desired focus.

Check out http://www.zeroimage.com142519

[xkaes]

You don't NEED a shutter, but you NEED a way to attach the pinhole to your camera. An EASY way is if you have a shutter. That does not mean you USE the shutter as you normally would. It is merely a way to attach the pinhole to the camera. I use #1 Copal shutter with a screwed in 39mm metal front lens cap with drilled holes on which the pinholes are attached. The shutters are open all the time! They are merely a conveyance for the pinhole. Since I have a Copal #1 shutter it is a lot more convenient than trying to use Gorilla Tape.

[Jim Jones]

If you're the sort of person who likes reading books rather than internetting, http://www.amazon.com/Pinhole-Photography-Historic-Technique-Application/dp/0240810473 is a bit of a "classic" resource. Some of examples of the inventiveness of lensless photography are rather breathtaking.

Yes, indeed. Eric Renner has devoted much energy and wisdom over many years to publish the best single resource on pinhole photography. One online resource with good information and links to more is http://jongrepstad.com/pinhole-photography/pinhole-photography-history-images-cameras-formulas/.

[pdh]

Yes, indeed.
Figure 6.61b on page 170 of my edition is a nice picture of one of those examples of inventiveness ;)

[Jim Jones]

Figure 6.61b on page 170 of my edition is a nice picture of one of those examples of inventiveness ;)

If that's the shaggy haired old man with a 10 foot long pinhole camera, that was the intermediate size camera. A 24 foot long version proved to be somewhat awkward to use.

[Peter Gomena]

If you want to frame your image more precisely, set the camera for the optimal focal length for your pinhole, and replace the pinhole with a larger diameter hole, say 1/16" or even 1/8".
You will see on the ground glass enough information to frame the image. Replace the viewing hole with the pinhole and away you go. You can mount your pinholes in a sturdy card (I use pieces cut from broken dark slides) and create a bracket for holding them in front of your lens board with very little trouble. A little black paper tape (the pinhole photographer's best friend) will seal around the edges of the pinhole mount. A little slow and cumbersome? Welcome to LF pinhole photography!

[tonyowen]

If you want to frame your image more precisely, set the camera for the optimal focal length for your pinhole, and replace the pinhole with a larger diameter hole, say 1/16" or even 1/8". You will see on the ground glass enough information to frame the image.

Peter, clarification please.
I did as you suggest, (1/8" pin hole) but at the fl of my pinhole the 'image' was too dim to make out anything - [my pin-hole to film distance is 10 inch (circa 250mm) for a pin hole of 1mm].
When I reduced the bellows extension an image was discernible - so I could 'centre the image' at short bellows extension and then rack out the bellows to suit my pin hole!!!
Curiousity only, what was/is the fl (pin hole to film distance) that you use(d)?
regards
Tony

[dasBlute]

I'd say forget precise framing. Seriously: just point it "that-a-way"
and get on learning the right amount of exposure for your
combination of film/paper/camera/pinhole, homemade or not.
Make some images. For quick turnaround, try RC paper with
a yellow filter; no reciprocity, quick and easy feedback about
how you're doing. You can even make a test strip by pulling the
darkslide out an inch at a time, doubling the exposure each time to
give you stops.

[Winger]

I've had good results with a pinhole that's about 0.46mm (I have a loupe that I can use to help measure it) and a pinhole to film distance of 5 inches. I don't remember the aperture that yields, but it's in the f288 area. I've used the Arista lith film at about ISO 6 ish and had decent results. I second the Mr. Pinhole site noted earlier.
I made my pinhole using a sewing needle. I didn't push it all the way through, just partway, then sanded the metal with emery cloth. I used a piece from a soda can.

[Peter Gomena]

tonyowen, I long ago gave up using a pinhole for anything longer than the "normal" focal length equivalent for any format. The images become too soft for my taste and the exposures, especially when I used an 8x10, often were too long for my patience. I use a 90mm equivalent or wider for 4x5 pictures, 75mm or wider for MF, and call it good. I used 8" and wider when I had a 5x7.

That said, since the images are so wide, "point it in the general direction" usually is accurate enough with normal-to-wide focal length equivalents. I have drawn lines on the tops of some tin can cameras to aid in viewing, or I'll cut a rectangular mask that I tape to the front of the camera and view from the film plane.

[JoeV]

To the OP: There can be a lifetime of fun and adventure with pinhole. Many of us use box cameras instead of LF cameras with bellows, since you can more easily put framing dots or lines on the sides and top of the box.

For optimal sharpness (which is not necessarily the only valid approach), each focal length has its own optimal sized pinhole. So using a bellows camera, you'd want a variety of pinhole sizes, for wide angle, normal and more telephoto angles of view.

I've had good results on 5x7 or 5x8 at F/300.

If you use sheet film, be aware of reciprocity failure. B/W photo paper negatives generally do not have issues with reciprocity failure in normal light levels, but do present their own challenges with controlling excessive contrast. MG paper will have its high-contrast emulsion activated by the blue and UV of daylight, resulting in excess contrast. So I use grade 2 RC paper instead.

Second, I preflash my paper negatives in the darkroom before loading into film holders or box cameras. A faint, even exposure so as to produce a faint gray on otherwise unexposed paper will serve to increase shadow detail in the scene without a significant increase in highlight density, thereby limiting excess contrast.

Regarding viewing the image on the GG of the camera, I've had good luck doing this on my Speed Graphic by using what I call a "viewing hole," which is about 1/8" wide, roughly F/50 or so. Under a dark cloth, it will provide enough light to be able to judge the general composition of the scene. You will not have enough resolution to see fine details, however, so this method is only for framing the scene.

About F295, it was once the premier discussion forum for pinhole photography, but is no longer an active community. Some of us long time members have started their own blogs. Mine will be a source of images, camera making projects and general experience and advice. And I will answer your questions in the blog's comment section.

pinholeobcura.blogspot.com (http://pinholeobscura.blogspot.com)

~Joe