learning vs how to improve

[esearing]

Hate it when instructors give bad advice because its easier on the student. Last year I decided to make the switch back to film and darkroom. So I went to a local art center and took a refresher course on black and white. The instructor insisted we all use 400 speed film and multigrade RC paper due to the "forgiving nature" of these products. The lab provided the chemistry. So I began shooting my 4x5 camera again and developed and printed per the instructions and was getting really dull blah grey images that were easy to put aside. Even exposing with higher graded filters did nothing to improve the tonal separation or give me rich blacks.

Then I changed a few things the instructor taught us, chemistry was kept the same. HC110 for film, Ethol LPD for paper, kodak stop, Ilford rapid fix.
1) switched to slower speed film (from HP5 to FP4, and recently bought some Delta 100)
2) extended developing time beyond recommended time by 10-15%
These two items alone gave me much richer negatives (when I expose them correctly) and ultimately easier prints.

3) change to multigrade Fiber based paper
There was an immediate and noticeable improvement in print tonality and separation of grays. While fiber has its curling issues the image is superior.
Now I am curious Oriental compares to Ilford vs other brands.

4) Metronome ! [Thanks to suggestion on Michael and Paula for proper use]
My timer started acting up and wouldn't produce the standard 3 or 4 second bursts I had become used to working in. So I dragged out my old metronome from piano lessons in childhood. Redid my test strips using the metronome and found times for max black at 3 different f-stops. I also changed out my bulb in the enlarger which was the other reason for the test strips.

5) A small change to the paper developer LPD from 1:4 to 1:2 does produce a more pronounced color shift than it did on RC paper.

While the instructor was concerned with newbies getting used to the process she would push me to make better images with the prior products and methods. I don't think I could have ever achieved what my mind was envisioning using RC paper.

Looking forward to new discoveries of the future. If you have a magic bullet process that helped you make leaps and bounds please share. I'm impatient.

[esearing]

An example - shot on iPhone RC on left, FB on right. Adjusted only brightness in photoshop and converted color to B&W for whole frame.

142291

[Michael R]

Not sure if you're going to like this, but there are really no magic bullets when it comes to chemicals and materials. I would also say the improvements you noticed could have been had with either the films/papers originally recommended by the instructor, or the ones you switched to. Just to give you a few examples, Ilford's RC papers will separate greys every bit as well as their fiber products, HP5 makes negatives as "rich" as FP4 does, etc. etc.

Try not to be impatient. Learn the controls, and practice.

[John Layton]

....ditto for what Michael R. said. Patience...practice...and (drum roll) there are no magic bullets! In fact, as an instructor myself, I would typically recommend that you consider spending a bit more time using the "wrong" materials, and do whatever it takes to push these as much as you can to get as close as possible to your desired results. Great learning potential in this approach!

[Robert Bowring]

Instead of looking for "a magic bullet" you should spend your time photographing unicorns. Your instructor was smart. Start at the beginning and grow from there. It sounds like you have already learned a lot. You will learn what materials and processes work for you.

[Mark Sawyer]

Instead of looking for "a magic bullet" you should spend your time photographing unicorns...

Nonsense! Try photographing pixies! :)

[Michael E]

When instructing a group of students, it's impossible to find a single (technical) solution that fits everybody. So you start out and set standards that work well for most. I often notice that beginners try too many options too early. One student recently kept asking me about different developer and exposure combinations, before she ever developed a single roll of film. She had read too much in advance and was setting herself up for a big disappointment potential. Get the standards down first, then go on improving from there. This seems to work out for you (and I don't think anybody would argue with your choices), but don't blame the instructor.

[ic-racer]

Maybe the RC paper was not RC Multigrade?

[Jim Noel]

Hate it when instructors give bad advice because its easier on the student. Last year I decided to make the switch back to film and darkroom. So I went to a local art center and took a refresher course on black and white. The instructor insisted we all use 400 speed film and multigrade RC paper due to the "forgiving nature" of these products. The lab provided the chemistry. So I began shooting my 4x5 camera again and developed and printed per the instructions and was getting really dull blah grey images that were easy to put aside. Even exposing with higher graded filters did nothing to improve the tonal separation or give me rich blacks.

Then I changed a few things the instructor taught us, chemistry was kept the same. HC110 for film, Ethol LPD for paper, kodak stop, Ilford rapid fix.
1) switched to slower speed film (from HP5 to FP4, and recently bought some Delta 100)
2) extended developing time beyond recommended time by 10-15%
These two items alone gave me much richer negatives (when I expose them correctly) and ultimately easier prints.

3) change to multigrade Fiber based paper
There was an immediate and noticeable improvement in print tonality and separation of grays. While fiber has its curling issues the image is superior.
Now I am curious Oriental compares to Ilford vs other brands.

4) Metronome ! [Thanks to suggestion on Michael and Paula for proper use]
My timer started acting up and wouldn't produce the standard 3 or 4 second bursts I had become used to working in. So I dragged out my old metronome from piano lessons in childhood. Redid my test strips using the metronome and found times for max black at 3 different f-stops. I also changed out my bulb in the enlarger which was the other reason for the test strips.

5) A small change to the paper developer LPD from 1:4 to 1:2 does produce a more pronounced color shift than it did on RC paper.

While the instructor was concerned with newbies getting used to the process she would push me to make better images with the prior products and methods. I don't think I could have ever achieved what my mind was envisioning using RC paper.

Looking forward to new discoveries of the future. If you have a magic bullet process that helped you make leaps and bounds please share. I'm impatient.

Congratulations for discovering solutions to the problem of am instructor locked in to one approach. During my 61 years of teaching i ran into far to many single approach teachers who turned off many students. Keep progressing toward your goal.

[Kirk Gittings]

I have no personal knowledge of his experience, BUT..........I have to say that many beginning students when they run into problems want to change everything even when they haven't come close to exploring the potentials or mastering their current materials. RC paper is a good example (I don't request RC BTW). It can be good for a speedy workflow in a crowded gang darkroom but IMHO it can be a bit harder to get good prints with (depends on the RC paper). But it is absolutely possible. Right now I have a class of 11. There is only room for one set of print chemistry. They can do what they want on their own darkroom time but in class we all have to use the same print chemistry, which is very standard (Dektol/Rapid Fix) but totally capable of producing good prints. Everything he mentioned above could produce good prints with enough experience. Changing chemistry or film is rarely a solution to a beginning photographers problems and allowing them to do so could be bad teaching by delaying the inevitable first hard lesson-there are no magic bullets in photography. It's all hard work, testing and effort.

[esearing]

Ilford's RC papers will separate greys every bit as well as their fiber products, HP5 makes negatives as "rich" as FP4 does, etc. etc.

Try not to be impatient. Learn the controls, and practice.

I was not asking for the perfect paper/developer combinations but rather a change to standard procedure that led to a perceived improvement. IE switched to warm tone paper or used a toner selenium/sepia, or mixed your own chemistry.
If you practice a piece of music badly over an over, you will play it badly at the recital.

The RC paper is Ilford Multigrade IV RC DLX - I could only get deep blacks and rich dark grays when wet. They dried duller. Same results from 2 different boxes.

vs Ilford multigrade FB Classic - First sheet out of the fixer I knew the difference.

[Ray Heath]

I was not asking for the perfect paper/developer combinations but rather a change to standard procedure that led to a perceived improvement. IE switched to warm tone paper or used a toner selenium/sepia, or mixed your own chemistry.
If you practice a piece of music badly over an over, you will play it badly at the recital.

The RC paper is Ilford Multigrade IV RC DLX - I could only get deep blacks and rich dark grays when wet. They dried duller. Same results from 2 different boxes.

vs Ilford multigrade FB Classic - First sheet out of the fixer I knew the difference.

From my nearly 30 year experience I'd say that RC paper is more contrasty than FB when exposed through the same contrast filter. So, either your not really using variable contrast paper or your not changing filters correctly.

The range of contrast control with RC variable contrast paper is huge. Look closer at your technique rather than blame your instructor.

[Sirius Glass]

There are no magic bullet cameras, film or chemistry. I have found that I get finer grain, better sharpness, and better tonality range and smoothness with replenished XTOL without presoak using a Jobo processor.

142299

[jp]

The reason for RC paper in class is probably so you can have something you can take home, and it's good enough for most purposes and more affordable. FB paper would need more washng and drying before you can take it home from class which would not be practical.

classrooms and sometimes home darkrooms often have bad / used up / contaminated developer and some papers handle this worse than others. Do use fresh developer if you are comparing papers.

I use both FB and RC paper. I think the FB is a minor increment better and not always sufficiently better to be worth the extra effort. I like Ilford and Foma FB paper and Oriental RC paper. It's good stuff. I make a lot of contact prints of printfile pages on the RC paper. It can get really black. The trick with paper developing is to develop to completion which means minimum times that are longer than "looks good". If you're pulling it when it looks right, FB develops more linearly I think and RC develops mostly quickly but tails off as you approach completion, and that fools the worker differently as to when to pull it, thus the suggestion to be careful as to what you call complete development.


I haven't used much HP5+ film and probably won't. It's going to take a long time to settle on a short list of film of your choice but you should. Trying new films all the time you could get similar mediocre results by not learning it. Other people have learned HP5+ very well and do nice stuff with it. I'm sure it's someone's magic bullet. I stick to FP4+ and tmax400 in pyrocat hd. I think pyrocat hd produces more details shadow tones than hc110 and handles highlights a little gentler, but that could potentially be because I only used half a bottle of hc110 and have used many bottles of pyrocat hd for many hundreds of rolls and sheets of film. I'll probably never know.

[LabRat]

Marshall McLuhan had a term "blinded by choice"... This applies to photo/lab materials, too...

Start from the beginning of the image chain, shake out the bugs, and go to the next step, and so on...

Here's a tip;

The better the neg, the easier it is to print... (On any paper!!!) Start with ONE film/developer and "get it right"... All will have a "sweet spot" somewhere you will find sooner or later... Stick with one combination until you find it...

An easy process to get you started with the negs is to load some film, take the rig outside in the sunlight, and shoot some tests... Set the exposure according to the meter, with the film speed set to what the box speed says (as a start)... Leave the camera focused at infinity, but place a white card in front of the lens with a yellow Post-Em note paper stuck to the middle... (Only pull out your slide about half way to get some clear area on the film...) Shoot this, and develop the film sheet and see if you can clearly see the note's outline on the darkened negative... If you must, change the development time until you can... You can change the film box speed later with more testing, but start here...

When you hold up the developed negative to a light bulb (at a few feet away), you should barely be able to see through the dense part when you use your finger behind it to make a shadow on it... That's about the right development time when you can just barely see the shadow... (Not greyish, or too black)
And look for the Post-Em step...

Once you do this, then try to shoot a scene with plenty of highlights & shadows and see what you get... If not enough shadow detail, you can try changing the box speed of the film by adding another f-stop of light (half of the box speed, and try the above developing test again, maybe cutting development slightly... (Sometimes the scene will have too much range, but get what you can by testing, and see if you like the look you are getting...

For printing, take the above negatives and print them on the paper you have, and normally diluted paper developer... Expose your first test negative so that the paper blacks just see a very slight step from the clear base/edge of the film (put the neg half in/out of the neg carrier to expose that film edge), and the slight step in the dense area (where the Post-Em was) can be seen in the paper highlight white... That will be your basic standard printing time...

Develop RC's for only about a minute, just after the paper blackens, but too long will make the edges on black stuff (d-max) mushier... (Work fast!!!)

Fiber papers are developed longer, but the longer you do it, the paper will tend to dry down more later if excessive (maybe too much!!!)...

Try this, but keep doing what you are doing...

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!

Steve K

[invisibleflash]

If you have a magic bullet process that helped you make leaps and bounds please share. I'm impatient.

Yes, have many. Here is just one technique...but doubt it will help you out if your stuck on LF.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/shooting-from-the-hip/

[denverjims]

Looking forward to new discoveries of the future.


IMHO: That attitude will drive you to get to the place you want to be. But 'shotgun', 'change everything' approaches tend to make the problem solution process more difficult rather than easier. Having been trained in the scientific method, I know that the best way to find solutions is to change 1 variable at a time keeping all others fixed. This way you can really understand the impact of that change. Pick a process, any process, then figure out why it is not what you desire as an outcome. Then change 1 thing to see if it gets you closer to your ideal. Evaluate the results. ...repeat.


If you have a magic bullet process that helped you make leaps and bounds please share. I'm impatient.


Yoda might say, "...and that is why you will fail." Remember the "10,000 hour rule". It may be a bit of an exaggeration but it's closer to the truth than we will probably want to admit. These processes do not lend themselves to the 'impatient' approach - as you will hear, over and over, from the folks who are working in this area. As a recovering "magic bullet" addict, I feel I can speak with some authority on this. In fact I'm thinking of starting a Magic Bullets Anonymous forum here. :>)

Even if you were to sit down with someone you considered the best photographer/printer you could find to learn their process, once you took that home and tried to reproduce exactly what they did, you might find that water you have has more minerals that interact in different ways with the chemistry or your safe lights are not quite as safe, or... Then you are screwed.

Embrace the process & the time necessary (and buy enough good scotch to provide sufficient lubrication for all moving parts).

[Mark Sawyer]

There are no magic bullet cameras, film or chemistry...

Nonsense! For that little bit of magic, next time you slide a print into the developer just wave a magic wand over the tray and exclaim, "photo appearioso!" An image will then slowly appear, like magic! It's all in the wand action; just remember, swish and flick, swish and flick...

[denverjims]

An image will then slowly appear, like magic! It's all in the wand action; just remember, swish and flick, swish and flick...

Mark, is the magic in the wrist or does it require the whole arm? And what about that whole "spin around 3 times" thing? :>)

[LabRat]

Nonsense! For that little bit of magic, next time you slide a print into the developer just wave a magic wand over the tray and exclaim, "photo appearioso!" An image will then slowly appear, like magic! It's all in the wand action; just remember, swish and flick, swish and flick...

Man, something has been making you tink (oops, Freudian, my bad) THINK strange... (What did she do to 'ya!?!!! I don't know/don't wanna know...) Get help (if not beyond possible)...

That technique will fly high in some (dark) corners of the web... Sad part is once I overheard some college photo instructor giving the same type of instruction on how to burn-in (that's right, not dodge!!!) print areas using the same technique... (He was clearly out of, and beyond his depth...) And totally serious about it...

But back to OT, film development/exposure testing is probably the biggest "bang-for-the-buck" for getting getting easy to print/great results... Worth the trip... You won't regret it!!!

Steve K