Dark Spots on film

[Robert Kalman]

Dark spots appear all over a group of 4x5 negatives I just processed. (See samples).
All the images were shot using a lens I haven't used for a while, an old 12" Kodak Ektar. While the lens looks clean to the naked eye, I'm wondering if the spots are originating from the lens. I don't think they're being caused during the film's processing.

Can anyone help?

Thanks!

142104 142105 142109.

[Cor]

Would be very surprised if it was the lens.

what film did you use ?

what developer ?

Best,

Cor

[LabRat]

The "blotchy" shape of them seems to suggest something in the wet step of the process... Sometimes algae or particulate in some solution or wash will shotgun prints or negs... (Looks like neg...)

Clean all processing gear carefully, filter solutions, and change (or add) a water filter... And clean/wipe down drying (and work) areas...

Also, now that it's getting cooler there, your furnace might be on for the season, and filters and ducts might be spewing stuff that's getting on your film or in solutions... Clean 'em!!!

Steve K

[LabRat]

Also, flush out your water lines to the lab well...

I'm thinking some sludge is attaching itself to the film before/during development, and inhibiting full development under those spots... (chem/water line/dust bunnys, lint, etc...)

High power lupe your negs and see if there are semi-clear spots there...

Steve K

[Jim Jones]

I agree with both preceding posts. Also, air bells can cause dark areas on a print, although usually larger and circular.

[John Olsen]

Ditto on LabRat's comments, plus: Sludge grows in Photoflo tanks like crazy after a couple of months. Scrub out the tank and mix fresh with bottled water on a monthly basis. That's helped me a lot.

[Robert Kalman]

Would be very surprised if it was the lens.

what film did you use ?

what developer ?

Best,

Cor

The film is Tri-X developed for 7 minutes in HC-110 Dilution H.

Since all of the respondents so far have suggested that the likely culprit is in processing, I'll review all of my darkroom steps. I tray process in a very routinized fashion, and have been doing so for the past twenty-five years. There's a slim possibility that I may have contaminated the developer by introducing a new syringe into the HC-110 after the old one fell apart (I find that a syringe is easier to use in the syrupy HC-110 rather than trying to measure out the developer in a graduate). I'll start out with fresh chemistry, run some tests using the same lens and see if that corrects the glitch.

Thanks!

[Robert Kalman]

Ditto on LabRat's comments, plus: Sludge grows in Photoflo tanks like crazy after a couple of months. Scrub out the tank and mix fresh with bottled water on a monthly basis. That's helped me a lot.

Yes, I'll freshen every chemical in the process, including the photo-flo. Thanks, John.

[Bruce Watson]

Dark spots appear all over a group of 4x5 negatives I just processed. (See samples).

These are dark spots on the print, which would be light spots on the negative. Which indicates dust on the film before exposure. When was the last time you cleaned the inside of your bellows?

[Robert Kalman]

These are dark spots on the print, which would be light spots on the negative. Which indicates dust on the film before exposure. When was the last time you cleaned the inside of your bellows?

I never thought of that!! Actually, I've never cleaned the bellows, and I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I'm not sure how to go about doing it...

So, I just checked the forum archives; there's plenty of advice on cleaning and maintaining the exterior of the bellows and on eliminating musty odors. There's nothing that seems definitive about cleaning the inside of the bellows, however.

Can anyone suggest how to effectively dust the insides?

As I've been thinking about the possible cause of the dark spots---my original reason for the post---and Bruce Watson's suggestion that it's dust on the film makes the most sense to me. That's because I used the 12 inch Ektar for the entire portrait shoot, and I racked out the bellows much further than I normally do. In doing so, I probably disturbed the dust "sleeping" within the folds of the bellows. (I'm going to compare the negatives at the beginning of the shoot, when the bellows were not racked out, to those taken after I stretched the bellows to make close ups).

The other respondents' suggestions that the dark spots are probably caused by less than pristine chemicals / water / darkroom conditions seems less plausible to me because I've experienced this before (dirty photo-flo, dust in the darkroom, to cite two examples) and those flaws in the negative look different than these. While I will start out with all fresh chemistry when I run some tests, I think my problem is dusty bellows rather than bad chemicals.

[Bruce Watson]

Can anyone suggest how to effectively dust the insides?

When it needs doing, a damp lint free cloth works for me. Hardly ever had this particular dust problem, so it must be at least somewhat effective.

[John Olsen]

Hmm, I've never dusted the insides of my bellows either.
BTW, if the dark spots do happen to be sludge from the PhotoFlo, you can soak the negs and gently rub the crud off.
Now, where's my bellows duster?

[Robert Kalman]

Hmm, I've never dusted the insides of my bellows either.
BTW, if the dark spots do happen to be sludge from the PhotoFlo, you can soak the negs and gently rub the crud off.
Now, where's my bellows duster?

The spots are in the negative rather than on the negative. That's why I'm inclined to believe it was dust inside the bellows when the negative was exposed, because there's no crud to soak off.

[LabRat]

Like I mentioned, take a high power loupe to the negs... Dust on the film during exposure will leave a sharp outline around the clear spot, but chem/crud will leave a softer/diffuse transition around the spot... (From the scan, looks more like a softer/blobby edge...) Crud can finally wash off during the process, leaving it clean...

It looks like what happens to dust/lint when stuck and wet on film, and clumps up... (Film gets more, and less sticky during the process...) And in and out dips in a dusty/cruddy surfaced solution will coat the film fairly easily... (Pay special attention to the developer supply and tank...)

And you can vac your film holders and camera innards with a shop vac with a micro attachment brush set from your home store...

Good Luck!!!!

Steve K

[Robert Kalman]

Like I mentioned, take a high power loupe to the negs... Dust on the film during exposure will leave a sharp outline around the clear spot, but chem/crud will leave a softer/diffuse transition around the spot... (From the scan, looks more like a softer/blobby edge...) Crud can finally wash off during the process, leaving it clean...

It looks like what happens to dust/lint when stuck and wet on film, and clumps up... (Film gets more, and less sticky during the process...) And in and out dips in a dusty/cruddy surfaced solution will coat the film fairly easily... (Pay special attention to the developer supply and tank...)

And you can vac your film holders and camera innards with a shop vac with a micro attachment brush set from your home store...

Good Luck!!!!

Steve K

Appreciate the comprehensive assessment and the suggestions, Steve!

[Jordan]

What brand camera are you using?

[John Jarosz]

What kind of film was it? For my own work I'm starting to question the film when it comes to uniformity and random defects.

I'm thinking the cheaper options for film may be not so cheap after all.

[Kevin Crisp]

Cleaning a bellows isn't hard. Rack it out as far as it will go so there are fewer creases for dust to hide in. Blow it out from the lens end with canned air or better yet a hose on a compressor dialed down to something reasonable like 30 psi and used from a distance. In a well lit room you will probably see dust come flying out. Even a wet towel will leave long fibers which are of course the worst to try and retouch off a print.

And of course it helps to wait a little bit after you load the holder in the camera, and don't pull the slide quickly.

If the material is degrading on the inside, resulting in small bits of debris from the fabric or paint somebody has used, this will only help some.

[Jordan]

I bet it's from the bellows as well, but I am curious as to what brand camera Robert is using as I have a theory based on a certain brand's original equipment bellows material.

[Robert Kalman]

What brand camera are you using?

Ebony

[Robert Kalman]

What kind of film was it? For my own work I'm starting to question the film when it comes to uniformity and random defects.

I'm thinking the cheaper options for film may be not so cheap after all.

Tri-X

[Ari]

I've dusted out the insides of bellows before, when I had old bellows on a Kodak 810 Master.
First I rack out the bellows, then point the camera straight down at 90˚.
I use a dry cloth first, then shoot compressed air in from the top.
Leave it for a few minutes, then it should be good to go.

[Kevin Crisp]

I looked at the close up scan again. My experience with in-camera dust on a negative is that the edges look sharper than this. So sharp many people think they have pinhole-like quality control issues with the emulsion.

[Wayne]

I've never seen dust IN a negative...I don't think. I suppose it could happen.

I recently had a similar problem in C-41 negatives, except the blobs were in fact dark in the negative and light in the prints. But they look much the same. I agree with those that suggest these blobs are chemical in origin, caused by clumping or de-clumping of something chemical in nature. In my case it was probably iron in my developer water. I don't know what would cause their mirror image in B&W negs...

[Pitcherman]

It was years ago but I had some weird kind of crystal-shaped spots on some film. I sent it to Kodak and it turned out to be from the fixer. So I agree it would likely be from the wet side.

[Robert Kalman]

It was years ago but I had some weird kind of crystal-shaped spots on some film. I sent it to Kodak and it turned out to be from the fixer. So I agree it would likely be from the wet side.

Funny that you should bring this up, Robert. I had a similar experience three years ago, posted the problem on LF and had a variety of theories as to what caused it. Kodak's response makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks for sharing.

[Wayne]

BTW have you actually looked at the negatives with a loup? What did you see?

[Robert Kalman]

BTW have you actually looked at the negatives with a loup? What did you see?

Yes...I see small, "blobby" clear specks.

Compounding the mystery: there were twenty shots in the take; the specks appear in only five or six of the negatives, not all of them. All shots were made with the same lens. The film was tray processed, ten at a time. The developer was fresh for both batches; the fixer was the same for both runs, as was the permawash and photo-flo. Judging from which negatives are affected, I think the spots are dust; introduced when I racked out the bellows to do closeups.