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View Full Version : 90mm wide angle in barrel - ? for 4X5



Randy
8-Nov-2015, 05:12
I was wondering if there exists a 90mm WA lens in barrel. I want to shoot hand held with my pre anniversary Speed Graphic (zone focus) and am trying to go as inexpensive as possible, so rather than spend for a lens in shutter, if a barrel lens is out there...

If there is no such creature, did anyone make a 90mm WA enlarging lens that might cover 4X5?

Advice?

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 06:20
Yes, all 90 mm lenses in Sinar DB mount are in barrel. No, a 90mm enlarging lens would not cover 45. Neither would an 80mm WA. A 120mm Wa enlarging lens covers 45.

Jim Jones
8-Nov-2015, 06:32
One of the f/6.8 90mm WA lenses with an inoperative shutter for press cameras might be cheaper than a shutterless lens in good condition.

Randy
8-Nov-2015, 06:34
One of the f/6.8 90mm WA lenses with an inoperative shutter for press cameras might be cheaper than a shutterless lens in good condition.

It's looking like even one with a working shutter is less than the Sinar mounts - thanks.

IanG
8-Nov-2015, 07:02
A 90mm f6.8 Angulon is cheap and a better bet than an an older WA lens in a barrel, I use mine hand-held with a Crown or Super Graphic.

Ian

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 07:10
A 90mm f6.8 Angulon is cheap and a better bet than an an older WA lens in a barrel, I use mine hand-held with a Crown or Super Graphic.

Ian

Cheaper, yes, but most don't cover 45 fully. They would not be as good a performer as a modern 90mm. But if you are happy with one then enjoy.

IanG
8-Nov-2015, 11:57
Cheaper, yes, but most don't cover 45 fully. They would not be as good a performer as a modern 90mm. But if you are happy with one then enjoy.

The late Dean Jones (Razzledog) found that the issue with early post WWII 90mm f6.8 Angulons was poor lens spacing which was a result of poor tolerances with the Compur shutters uses, this affected some early 90mm Angulons in the Synchro Compur shutters. Dean machined some shutters to the correct the spacing (which was to long) to the Compur specification and found that greatly improved the performance of poorer performing Angulons. If the spacing's is too far apart coverage suffers.

The OP wants a budget WA lens, his camera has no movements except front rise so and good 90mm f6.8 Angulon fits that requirement and so would a similar WA Raptar..

Bob, I think you'd be rather surprised just how good these 90mm f6.8 Angulons can be, I use one with my cameras, Crown & Super Graphics, in Turkey/Greece hand-held and with a tripod and people can't tell the difference when images are compared to those made with my 90mm f6.8 Grandagon or 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon. Sure the latter two lenses have far more coverage than the Angulon but my 90mm Angulon covers 5x4 with no vignetting or corner softness and that's all that matter.

Randy, while your camera has a Focal plane shutter you'll probably get sharper images using a lens in a leaf shutter hand held. It's also quite easy to focus on the GG screen when working hand-held, then use the wire finder for final composition.

Ian

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 12:17
The late Dean Jones (Razzledog) found that the issue with early post WWII 90mm f6.8 Angulons was poor lens spacing which was a result of poor tolerances with the Compur shutters uses, this affected some early 90mm Angulons in the Synchro Compur shutters. Dean machined some shutters to the correct the spacing (which was to long) to the Compur specification and found that greatly improved the performance of poorer performing Angulons. If the spacing's is too far apart coverage suffers.

The OP wants a budget WA lens, his camera has no movements except front rise so and good 90mm f6.8 Angulon fits that requirement and so would a similar WA Raptar..

Bob, I think you'd be rather surprised just how good these 90mm f6.8 Angulons can be, I use one with my cameras, Crown & Super Graphics, in Turkey/Greece hand-held and with a tripod and people can't tell the difference when images are compared to those made with my 90mm f6.8 Grandagon or 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon. Sure the latter two lenses have far more coverage than the Angulon but my 90mm Angulon covers 5x4 with no vignetting or corner softness and that's all that matter.

Randy, while your camera has a Focal plane shutter you'll probably get sharper images using a lens in a leaf shutter hand held. It's also quite easy to focus on the GG screen when working hand-held, then use the wire finder for final composition.

Ian

Ian,
I was using the 90mm Angulon in the 60s and the difference in performance when I got the SA was dramatic. Even though that SA was in a 00 shutter. To each their own. I was shooting for clients and competing against a fair number of studios that also did commercial work. Those clients saw the differences.

IanG
8-Nov-2015, 12:43
Ian,
I was using the 90mm Angulon in the 60s and the difference in performance when I got the SA was dramatic. Even though that SA was in a 00 shutter. To each their own. I was shooting for clients and competing against a fair number of studios that also did commercial work. Those clients saw the differences.

You obviously had one of the few poor ones then, so your comments aren't particularly valid or remotely helpful to anyone. Have you read what camera the OP is wanting a WA lens to shooting with?

There's no arguing that the Super Angulons and Grandagons etc aren't better when it comes to needing to use movements etc but these older Angulons are very capable lenses used carefully. I had an older 90mm f6.8 Angulaon in the 1980's and it was poor, I borrowed another which wasn't a lot better, however the one I have now is excellent. Schneider must have realised there was an issue with the shutter spacing by around 1963 as the Angulons with SN's above 8,000,000 are all OK.

Ian

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 13:10
You obviously had one of the few poor ones then, so your comments aren't particularly valid or remotely helpful to anyone. Have you read what camera the OP is wanting a WA lens to shooting with?

There's no arguing that the Super Angulons and Grandagons etc aren't better when it comes to needing to use movements etc but these older Angulons are very capable lenses used carefully. I had an older 90mm f6.8 Angulaon in the 1980's and it was poor, I borrowed another which wasn't a lot better, however the one I have now is excellent. Schneider must have realised there was an issue with the shutter spacing by around 1963 as the Angulons with SN's above 8,000,000 are all OK.

Ian

And that still doesn't account for Schneider listing it as a lens that covered 9x12cm and not 4x5". If one wants a high quality 90 on a budget there are other options available all the time these days. One that many overlook is the 90mm Gerogon-WA which was specifically made for students on a budget.

IanG
8-Nov-2015, 13:35
And that still doesn't account for Schneider listing it as a lens that covered 9x12cm and not 4x5". If one wants a high quality 90 on a budget there are other options available all the time these days. One that many overlook is the 90mm Gerogon-WA which was specifically made for students on a budget.

Schneider listed all their lenses as covering 9x12 rather than 5x4 at one time, they are a German company after all, and that's the equivalent Continental European format of the era the lenses were made. Look at the data for Xenars (https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/xenar/data/4,5-150mm.html) etc.

You won't see any mention of 5x4, 10x8 etc in 1960's Schneider literature, I have a 1970 Schneider Professional Lenses Review leaflet(in English) in front of me and all sizes for coverage are metric. So don't read too much into the 90mm angulon being listed as 9x12, the difference between the formats is quite small, almost exactly the same lengngth, 5x4 is a touch wider.

Kerry Thalman and Chris Peres tested quite a few LF lenses some years ago, they tested quite a few 90mm f6.8 Angulons because of the quality issue, the best were excellent the poor once dire. There's plenty of photographers getting excellent results from their Angulons.

Ian

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 13:36
Schneider listed all their lenses as covering 9x12 rather than 5x4 at one time, they are a German company after all, and that's the equivalent Continental European format of the era the lenses were made. Look at the data for Xenars (https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/xenar/data/4,5-150mm.html) etc.

You won't see any mention of 5x4, 10x8 etc in 1960's Schneider literature, I have a 1970 Schneider Professional Lenses Review leaflet(in English) in front of me and all sizes for coverage are metric. So don't read too much into the 90mm angulon being listed as 9x12, the difference between the formats is quite small, almost exactly the same lengngth, 5x4 is a touch wider.

Kerry Thalman and Chris Peres tested quite a few LF lenses some years ago, they tested quite a few 90mm f6.8 Angulons because of the quality issue, the best were excellent the poor once dire. There's plenty of photographers getting excellent results from their Angulons.

Ian

What is the listed image circle?

Oren Grad
8-Nov-2015, 13:59
What is the listed image circle?

154 mm at f/16.

https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/angulon/data/6,8-90mm.html

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 14:23
154 mm at f/16.

https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/angulon/data/6,8-90mm.html
So it is not good for a camera using movements or for anyone looking for the best results edge to edge and corner to corner.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Nov-2015, 15:15
Bob, we all know and appreciate that you're giving good advice but in the OP, Randy states he wants to shoot hand-held, so coverage beyond straight-on isn't a factor.

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 16:08
Bob, we all know and appreciate that you're giving good advice but in the OP, Randy states he wants to shoot hand-held, so coverage beyond straight-on isn't a factor.

That is today's need. However there are 3 problems with that.
1: it is not exactly a state of the art lens today and much better quality is easily and reasonably available.
2: assuming his needs might become greater as he gets into 45 the lens really will not perform with more advanced cameras with movements.
3: I would doubt that an underperforming, old lens like this will appreciate in value over time when he decides to get rid of it. He might not even get his full investment back.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Nov-2015, 16:27
Bob, the OP is very specific. He wants cheap and straight-on coverage. He mentions nothing of changing needs in the future nor anything about overall quality... he even mentions trying an enlarging lens. Obviously, he just wants to make 4x5 images with a cheap 90mm lens. The old Angulon will easily do that and (if he's lucky) he'll find a very good one.

If we want to speak of all possible future needs and the very best quality then we might as well suggest a 90mm SAXL which is extremely pricey and won't even fit his camera. So then we'd have to suggest he replace his camera too.

Randy
8-Nov-2015, 16:37
What I am going for is a "poor mans" TravelWide - and I say "poor mans" because I am a poor man and I already have the Speed Graphic, so I don't have to purchase a camera, just a lens. So, let me pick the brains a bit more - since the Super Angulons are fairly plentiful, and are a more modern lens, and probably would not add noticeably more weight to the Speed graphic (over the Angulon) - how do the two technologies compare at wide apertures...since I would like to be able to shoot hand held I would need to have the option for shooting at wide open (or close to it) from time to time.

Bob Salomon
8-Nov-2015, 16:45
What I am going for is a "poor mans" TravelWide - and I say "poor mans" because I am a poor man and I already have the Speed Graphic, so I don't have to purchase a camera, just a lens. So, let me pick the brains a bit more - since the Super Angulons are fairly plentiful, and are a more modern lens, and probably would not add noticeably more weight to the Speed graphic (over the Angulon) - how do the two technologies compare at wide apertures...since I would like to be able to shoot hand held I would need to have the option for shooting at wide open (or close to it) from time to time.

The 90mm Angulon barely covers 45 stopped down. It will not cover at larger apertures. A modern Grandagon or SA will be much better at larger apertures.

Old-N-Feeble
8-Nov-2015, 17:06
Yes, wide open the 90mm Angulon will be mushy in the corners but a SA won't be that great either... but better. Keep in mind though, the 6.8 Angulon is a half stop faster than an f/8 SA and the f/5.6 SA is more expensive and much larger/heavier than the f/8 version.

Randy
8-Nov-2015, 17:30
Well crap - I may as well just forget it. Sounds like there is just no way to get the corners as sharp as the middle without stopping down considerably (or spending a lot more $) I have a 115mm Grandagon that is quite a performer but just not near as wide and much heavier than the 90mm SA & A.

Jim Jones
8-Nov-2015, 19:41
The small Angulon and Optar 90s fit in a Graphic when it is closed. This can be an important consideration.

IanG
9-Nov-2015, 02:20
Well crap - I may as well just forget it. Sounds like there is just no way to get the corners as sharp as the middle without stopping down considerably (or spending a lot more $) I have a 115mm Grandagon that is quite a performer but just not near as wide and much heavier than the 90mm SA & A.

The Travelwide was designed to be light weight and use the small light 90mm f6.8 Angulon. A 90mm Super Angulon f5.6 or f8 (or later f6.8) is quite a bit larger and heavier.


The small Angulon and Optar 90s fit in a Graphic when it is closed. This can be an important consideration.

That's why my 90mm f6.8 Angulon is part of my light weight LF kit in Turkey and by shooting with HP5 when working hand-held I have no problems shooting at f16 or even f22 achieving the best from the lens.

It's horses for courses the these Angulons and Raptars are great little lenses provided you don't need to use movements, the most I'm using in Tyrkey/Greece is front tilt and I can compensate with rise/fall to keep within the image circle.

Bob Salomon is commenting from a different viewpoint which is valid where you need a WA with greater coverage for movements, his experiences of the 90mm Angulon may well have been in more challenging conditions, however there are a lot of photographers using these lenses and achieving excellent results.

You should try one Randy.

Ian

Old-N-Feeble
9-Nov-2015, 06:50
Randy, a good Angulon is pretty good to the far corners when stopped down to at least f/11 and can be very good at f/16 or f/22. Are you absolutely stuck on shooting wide open? Wouldn't f/11 be close enough?

Randy
9-Nov-2015, 15:55
No, wide open is not mandatory, I was just hoping that option would be there if lighting required. I'll keep my eye out for an Angulon. Guess I could always resell if I wasn't terribly happy.

Old-N-Feeble
9-Nov-2015, 16:01
Look for a later version.