Very basic question re barrel lenses

[tonyowen]

I've a Calumet 5x4 camera, and I see many (eBay) offers for barrel lenses, but do not know how they are used in practice.

I understand a shutter can be fitted to the lens (or the other way around) but ignoring that option how could/would/should a barrel lens be used.

Without a shutter, I assume a barrel lens could not be used for sub-1 second speeds.

Therefore, I assume, the usable speeds are in excess of one second.

4x5 Sheet film is typically 100 asa or faster, so can these lenses be used in daylight even at (say) f32?

Typically, what length of exposure minimises the risk of serious under/over exposure; for instance a one-second error at 20s would not be as noticeable as a one-second error at 5s exposure?

In ignorance,

regards

Tony

[John Kasaian]

I use mine with a lens cap and counting "one one thousand, two one thousand, etc..."
You can also use Jim Galli's dark slide technique for a shorter exposure---I'm sure someone here will eventually post a link.
Selecting a slower "personal" ISO rather than the published box speed may help.
Conventional B&W film (as well as ortho film souped under the red safe light) is pretty forgiving.

[IanG]

You can fit barrel lenses to LF cameras with Focal plane shutters, Sped Graphics, MPP MicrPress (UK variation of Speed graphic), various LF SLRs, Field cameras with built in or add-on focal plane shutters, or simplest in the UK a Thornton Pickard roller blind shutter either front mounted to the lens or between the lens and lens-board, these give 1/10 to 1/90 plus T.

There's also LUC type front mounted shutters often with a fixed 1/50 or 1/100 speed. Shutters like Packard, Norka and other studio shutters are not so good for speeds much faster than about 1/2 a second. I should add I have all the shutters mentioned and all are practical.

Ian

[ic-racer]

I've a Calumet 5x4 camera, and I see many (eBay) offers for barrel lenses,

Many can be used as enlarging lenses. Since they don't have shutters, using them on a film camera is not practical. It is not impossible, so If you do want to make large format photography as difficult as possible, you can use a barrel lens on your camera.

[Dan Fromm]

Tony, its a matter of economics.

Some barrel lenses have cells that are direct fits in standard shutters, some don't. Many G-Clarons, some Apo-Ronars, all Xenars and Symmars in barrel, ... Whether this makes sense depends on how much you'll have to pay to get the right shutter vs. how much the lens in shutter will cost.

Many can be hung in front of a shutter or have a shutter hung in front of them. Whether this will yield a useful lens depends on the lens' focal length, maximum aperture and the format you want to use it on. Adapters aren't cheap, neither are shutters. I use barrel lenses, hang most of them in front of a shutter, but I have a pile of lenses that fit the same adapter ... In general getting a lens that will do what you want in shutter will cost less than an adapter for one lens and a shutter. But remember, front mounting isn't always practical.

Don't forget that putting an ND filter in front of a lens will let you use it at slower shutter speeds. This is one way to make a lens cap or the traditional, they say, hat shutter work for you.

Re Ian's suggestions, I hang a Compound #5, top speed as measured 1/40, in front of a monstrous process lens. In general, however, lenses in barrel are best viewed as poisoned gifts.

[jp]

I use a speed graphic with focal plane shutter to use barrel lenses (and old 8x10 lenses with a broken studio shutter)

Another option I've seen used plenty is the Sinar shutter which was meant to be used in a Sinar front standard. People either make an adaptor to put that on their front standard or an adaptor to fit it to the front of a lens. Then you'd get x-sync and all that.

The antique shutters are also an option, packard being the most popular in the US.

If it's for indoor use with B&W film, there's enough latitude between 1/2 and 1 sec if you're using a darkslide for a shutter that it's not going to matter much. Multi-second exposures are easy with no shutter in dim indoor light.

[Pete Watkins]

Before I bought my Sinar and Sinar Copal shutter I used to use step up rings on the front of my barrel lenses and screw my Copal 3 shutter to them. Worked extremely well. Bear in mind that all films can suffer from reciprocity problems when used for long exposures, this can be a blessing as can neutral density filters.
Pete.

[pdh]

The idea that barrel lenses are entirely impractical doesn't fly.


After all, we wouldn't have very many of the exquisite 19th century photographic images that we do if shuttered lenses were a prerequisite of good photography.

I have used barrel lenses for the first couple of years of my LF photography without shutters, using only a lens cap, with film and paper negatives, and with home-made and "proper" lf cameras, and it is perfectly feasible to produce fine quality images this way.

I have also made guillotine shutters (a quick google will turn up details) which worked well if a trifle clumsily.

As IanG and Dan Fromm say, there are a multitude of ways to shutter a barrel lens, but proper Copals and similar are often very expensive in the UK, while Packards often have to be sourced from the States and Lucs are rare as hen's teeth. If you can persuade Ian to sell you one of his TPs I'd suggest that's the way to go.

Shuttered lenses can be had relatively inexpensively if one is patient and is not obsessive about condition. I've moved away from barrels now as I managed to find a very nice Fujinon lens (for 10x8) in a working Copal 1 for well under £100 - but it took me a year of waiting and constant checking eBay.

[IanG]

Dallmeyer made Packard shutters under license in the UK for quite a few years.

As PDH says I do have one or two Thornton Pickard and similar shutters :D I think there's over 30 waiting for new shutter curtains and re-assembly, the cases and brass work were restored a couple of years ago. Unfortunately the larger ones are rarer but they are great for Petzvals etc where they can be used front mounted.

An ideal TP set-up would be to have two, one for 1/10 to 1/90 and a second for 1/100 to 1/1000, the faster one would need to be front mounting and removed for focussing as the slit width is narrow so you don't have a T setting.

Ian

[tonyowen]

Dallmeyer made Packard shutters - Thornton Pickard and similar shutters An ideal TP set-upIan

To all respondents

I may have mislead you with my question. I'm not looking at the 'antique shutters and lens', which though beautiful I cannot justify.

Rather more modern ones (ie G clarons) that are offered on ebay for a few tens of pounds.

Having googled it, I think a Thornton Pickard shutter is too large to easily fit on my (4x5) camera.

I'm not worried about 'slow' shutter speeds, albeit I'm aware of problems with Foma film (film of choice) if exposures exceed 1 second.

What is a TP setup?

regards

Tony

[Dan Fromm]

Tony, the 150 G-Claron's cells are direct fits in a Copal #0. 210 - 305 in Copal #1. 355 in Copal #3. This from Schneider's G-Claron brochures.

Direct fit means "unscrew the cells from their barrel, screw them into the right sized shutter, scale the aperture for the lens and go."

You may be able to obtain G-Claron of the focal length you want in barrel, obtain a shutter and scale the aperture (or have it scaled) for less than the same focal length already in shutter with aperture scaled. Or you may not. Shop carefully.

[IanG]

What is a TP setup?


Here's two typical setups:

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/QP_shutter.jpg

Technically this isn't a front mounting version but it fits nicely.

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/hp0024.jpg

This is the between the lens type which fits between the lens and lens board. These have a removable front panel to which the lens flange is fitted allowing the same shutter to be used with more than one lens.

These shutters are often fitted to quite small lens boards, smaller than most modern post WWII 5x4 cameras. This is one I refurbished a few weeks ago along with a camera and plate holders, the lens board was approx 2½" (6.3cm) square.

I agree with Dan though if they'll fit a shutter like a Compur/Copal that's a better option. In the UK there's also Epsilon, Trikon and AGI shutters #0 standard that will accept 150mm G Claron cells.

Ian

[John Kasaian]

Tony, the 150 G-Claron's cells are direct fits in a Copal #0. 210 - 305 in Copal #1. 355 in Copal #3. This from Schneider's G-Claron brochures.

Direct fit means "unscrew the cells from their barrel, screw them into the right sized shutter, scale the aperture for the lens and go."

You may be able to obtain G-Claron of the focal length you want in barrel, obtain a shutter and scale the aperture (or have it scaled) for less than the same focal length already in shutter with aperture scaled. Or you may not. Shop carefully.
I've gone down this trail a few times with excellent results. It can be a very cost effective way to add a G Caron to your glass menagerie. As Dan Fromm suggests, shop carefully. Mr. Jim Galli, IIRC, had a cottage industry going placing G Claron orphans in good shutter homes:D

[Jac@stafford.net]

Conley Camera made an interesting pneumatic shutter. See this one (http://camerasdownunder.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=99) shown with the shutter flaps open, retracted against the baffles on the side. I have two of them, both with a 4.4" (112mm) diameter hole. There is another shown with the flaps in the closed view at auction # 361409316870. I would likely place it in front of the lens to keep it simple.

Conley Cameras were made in Rochester, Minnesota where I have found many of their products over years.

[IanG]

Conley Camera made an interesting pneumatic shutter. See this one (http://camerasdownunder.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=99) shown with the shutter flaps open, retracted against the baffles on the side. I have two of them, both with a 4.4" (112mm) diameter hole. There is another shown with the flaps in the closed view at auction # 361409316870. I would likely place it in front of the lens to keep it simple.

Conley Cameras were made in Rochester, Minnesota where I have found many of their products over years.

That's essentially a variation of the Norka studio shutter, see this thread on APUG.
(http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/76411-homemade-shutter-big.html) Probably the easiest shutter to make yourself after a Guillotine shutter.

Ian