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View Full Version : Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?



pchaplo
16-Oct-2015, 23:48
:) I know - you want to say "get an Expert tank." Ha! That won't help me right now.

I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+, HP5+ film, flexible on developer choice. My CPE2+ came with reels that may be usable so I just need a reel or two.

As I get ready to proceed, I am reading about how a significant number of 2509n users experience processing marks on their black & white 4x5 film using this reel. One person modified the reel by trimming the "triangles" that hold the film in place -- to prevent what at least one person called "surge marks."

Other users report no problems. How can this be? And so I wonder -- given that people are using the same reel design, how is it that some have processing marks that make their negatives unusable, while others have evenly developed negs?

Has anyone figured why some folks have success and other failure with these reels? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences! If you are using the reel and it works great, producing beautiful, evenly developed film without the marks, please share details of your method, so that some of the "mojo" can rub-off on me.

Paul

dave_whatever
17-Oct-2015, 00:18
I've had no problems with those reels using colour E6 and any black and white film I've thrown at it. I always use the fastest speed on a CPE2, and 250ml of juice. To be honest never heard of people having"surge" problems.

I've always used the small tank that only takes one reel. Maybe the folk having problems are using bigger tanks, or too much juice, or the slower rotation speed?

Huub
17-Oct-2015, 03:16
I have been using HP5+ in XTOL 1+2 in 2509n reels, using a CPE-2 and i get those dreaded surge marks every now and then. Mostly they are very minor, showing as a little dark stripe at the very edge of the negative. Those marks i let for what they are, as a mark of the technique i used. Just like the numbers showing with my Linhof darkslides or the graflex cassettes.

Every now and then a negative gets ruined by much bigger surge marks, showing up like a flowing patern along the sides of the negatives. These are of a very different category.

I haven't found a real solution for it, but putting only 4 negatives in the reel, not using the middle slot helps. But even then sometimes a negative gets ruined, so i decided to change the film i am using. After using TMY-2 until it got much to expensive, started on Rollei RPX400. The few negatives i have shot look pretty nice, but the film is on a very thin base, which makes handling a bit tricky.

Sal Santamaura
17-Oct-2015, 08:14
...I know - you want to say "get an Expert tank."...Not only want to, I will. Get an Expert drum.


...That won't help me right now. I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+...Yes, it will help you. You don't have to work with the CPE2+. In your situation -- and I've been in your situation -- I'd either dispose of the CPE2+ or put it in storage, then get an Expert drum. You don't need a processor. Either roll the drum by hand on one of these


http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1509-Jobo-Roller-Base-for-Tanks-and-Drums

or some other arrangement of your own construction. Search here for previous threads showing what others have built for that purpose. Pour liquids into the drum using something like this:


http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/FTL0/05060/N0027.oap?ck=Search_N0027_-1_-1&rpl=1&categoryRedirect=N0027&pt=N0027

You will never reliably eliminate uneven development using a 2509n reel and rotary processing. A few specific films can be successfully processed in those reels using inversion agitation, but most will bend too much and end up with substantial scratches, especially when loaded in the outer slots. Bottom line: there's never been anything designed and built for sheet film processing at home that can hold a candle to Expert drums. Give in, get one and be happy.

tgtaylor
17-Oct-2015, 08:32
Those dark marks along the sides of the negatives are most likely from photoflo build-up on the reel in that area. I bought my reels new and for the first year or so developed B&W by inversion putting photoflo directly in the tank with the reel. After some time those dark bands began to appear. So I switched to rotary processing and applying photoflo off the reels in a small plastic box that sidewalk chalk came in. The marks disappeared and never came back. I theorize that the photoflo build-up interferred with the flow of the chemistry.

Don't modify the reel by removing the film stops. That's one way to determine if the sheet is correctly seated in its slot. I process 6 sheets at a time without any scratches, etc. Just make sure that the emulsion is inward toward the post.

Thomas

ic-racer
17-Oct-2015, 08:34
I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+, HP5+ film, flexible on developer choice. My CPE2+ came with reels that may be usable so I just need a reel or two.
l

What kind of problems are you having?

Chauncey Walden
17-Oct-2015, 09:15
I've never had any problems with 2509n reels. I use 1 or 2 tanks in the appropriate drums loaded with either 4 or 6 negs in my Jobo at speed P. I'm using PMK Pyro so solution quantity is either 300 or 450ml per reel. The only time I ever had a problem with 4x5 was when I borrowed a friend's 3010 Expert drum. Go figure.
PS I would never use Photoflo for anything other than holding down the bottom of the trash can. Edwal LFN is the only way to go.

pchaplo
17-Oct-2015, 11:27
Those dark marks along the sides of the negatives are most likely from photoflo build-up on the reel in that area. I bought my reels new and for the first year or so developed B&W by inversion putting photoflo directly in the tank with the reel. After some time those dark bands began to appear. So I switched to rotary processing and applying photoflo off the reels in a small plastic box that sidewalk chalk came in. The marks disappeared and never came back. I theorize that the photoflo build-up interferred with the flow of the chemistry.
Thomas

Thomas, That's interesting that Photoflo could be the culprit. Thanks for replying!
Paul

pchaplo
17-Oct-2015, 11:30
I've never had any problems with 2509n reels. I use 1 or 2 tanks in the appropriate drums loaded with either 4 or 6 negs in my Jobo at speed P. I'm using PMK Pyro so solution quantity is either 300 or 450ml per reel. The only time I ever had a problem with 4x5 was when I borrowed a friend's 3010 Expert drum. Go figure.
PS I would never use Photoflo for anything other than holding down the bottom of the trash can. Edwal LFN is the only way to go.

Chauncey, thanks for chiming-in as a user who never had a problem with 2509n reels. I will located some Edwal LFN as an alternative to Photoflo. Interesting that Thomas also pointed to photoflo. I have never used PMK Pyro -- is that stock solution, or a certain dilution? Do you get it from Freestyle. I seem to recall that Ansel had Pyro-stained hands; is that right?

Chauncey Walden
17-Oct-2015, 11:43
PMK stock is diluted 1:3:100. I get mine from Photographers' Formulary but Freestyle also handles the Formulary kits. Shelf life is very long. Pyro and amidol developers will both stain hands BUT I would never put my hands in either.

Daniel Stone
17-Oct-2015, 11:56
I found that doing the following helped to eliminate the dreaded "surge marks" when (I) used the 2509N reels:

1. Use the included "flaps/wings". You know, those 4x5 black plastic inserts you clip into the reel after loading your film.
2. Only load (4) sheets of film, NOT 6. Use the most inside and outside slots to hold your film.
3. Use a SLOWER rotation speed. This takes some DIY testing, but from what I can recall from memory, I used a speed slightly slower than the "F"(film) setting. The slower rotation speed creates less turbulence/swirling action in the chemistry. Just my experience based on what I saw in my negatives.
4. Use MORE chemistry than JOBO recommends for rotary development. I usually multiplied the JOBO 'recommended' volumes by 1.5X.
5. DO NOT do the photo-flo/final rinse(for color) in the drum. Remove your processed film from the reels and do the photo-flo/final rinse step in a tray.
6. Wash your reels THOROUGHLY every few cycles. In between runs, rinse them with HOT water and dry thoroughly(as in completely dry) before reloading.

-Dan

pchaplo
17-Oct-2015, 20:53
I found that doing the following helped to eliminate the dreaded "surge marks" when (I) used the 2509N reels:

1. Use the included "flaps/wings". You know, those 4x5 black plastic inserts you clip into the reel after loading your film.
2. Only load (4) sheets of film, NOT 6. Use the most inside and outside slots to hold your film.
3. Use a SLOWER rotation speed. This takes some DIY testing, but from what I can recall from memory, I used a speed slightly slower than the "F"(film) setting. The slower rotation speed creates less turbulence/swirling action in the chemistry. Just my experience based on what I saw in my negatives.
4. Use MORE chemistry than JOBO recommends for rotary development. I usually multiplied the JOBO 'recommended' volumes by 1.5X.
5. DO NOT do the photo-flo/final rinse(for color) in the drum. Remove your processed film from the reels and do the photo-flo/final rinse step in a tray.
6. Wash your reels THOROUGHLY every few cycles. In between runs, rinse them with HOT water and dry thoroughly(as in completely dry) before reloading.

-Dan

Dan, thanks for sharing your approach to reducing the processing marks. My theory is that build-up on the reels is part of the problem. In any case, I am going to get a used 2509n (or 2) and I need a core for my existing tanks that came without the core :(

Duolab123
17-Oct-2015, 21:42
I have been using HP5+ in XTOL 1+2 in 2509n reels, using a CPE-2 and i get those dreaded surge marks every now and then. Mostly they are very minor, showing as a little dark stripe at the very edge of the negative. Those marks i let for what they are, as a mark of the technique i used. Just like the numbers showing with my Linhof darkslides or the graflex cassettes.

Every now and then a negative gets ruined by much bigger surge marks, showing up like a flowing patern along the sides of the negatives. These are of a very different category.

I haven't found a real solution for it, but putting only 4 negatives in the reel, not using the middle slot helps. But even then sometimes a negative gets ruined, so i decided to change the film i am using. After using TMY-2 until it got much to expensive, started on Rollei RPX400. The few negatives i have shot look pretty nice, but the film is on a very thin base, which makes handling a bit tricky.

You may not have enough active developer with dilute XTOL and such low volumes of solutions with the rotary method. I've never had a problem with XTOL 1:1 or 1:2 in deep tanks or roll film by inversion. When I use my 2509n reels I use stock XTOL. I had problems with exhausting the developer when using diluted. I like XTOL 1:1 for 120 with my Jobo machine. I never put more than 1 film per reel , so I use a 1520 and 1530 with 3 reels and 3 rolls total. You get great results of the dilute developer with no troubles.

Huub
18-Oct-2015, 02:24
You may not have enough active developer with dilute XTOL and such low volumes of solutions with the rotary method.

Kodak documentation states that you need at least 100 ml stock per 4 sheets of 4x5. The 2521 tank asks for at least 300 ml of solution on the 2509n reel, which in 1+2 with 4 sheets of 4x5 film should work out perfectly. I prefer not to develop in stock solution due to short development times. Using 1+2 my N-2 development with HP5+ is about 6.5 minutes on 20 C; stock would bring that way under the 5 minutes i prefer to stick to as minumum time.

Neither can photoflo be the cullprit, because i use a tray for the final rinse, for the reasons already stated. A cleaning of the tanks and spirals might be a consideration though, as they have build up a nice stain over the years.

tonyowen
19-Oct-2015, 02:43
I''m not exactly certain what you mean by surge marks - do you have an illustration that shows them and their intensity?

I use a 2509N reel WITHOUT WINGS in a 2500 tank and process four 4x5 films at a time, with the 'exposed' side inwards. I manually rotated on the 1509 roller base, consequently speed of rotation varies and is not repeatable. I use the recommended 270ml of liquid, use Ilfosol 3 and after fixing, wash in a tray.

Assuming that by surge marks you mean a darkened line/zone on the negative is not this the normal result of rotary processing whereby the negative is being passed into and out of, the developing liquid? Consequently, any developing liquid retained on or in the reel adjacent to a sheet of film, would cause added development in the vicinity of that liquid, which over the lenght of the normal developing time would make a significant increase in the 'actual development time' of that locality.

Surge implies waves, I would have thought using the 2509N wings would magnify any waves made by the film sheets as the pass into, through, and out, of the liquid. Even so I do not see how a wave shaped mark(s) would be caused as the wave would not 'rest' on any part of the negative during reel rotation.

Of course I could be completely wrong and my thoughts nonsensical!!!!
regards
Tony

pchaplo
19-Oct-2015, 12:21
Surge implies waves, I would have thought using the 2509N wings would magnify any waves made by the film sheets as the pass into, through, and out, of the liquid. Even so I do not see how a wave shaped mark(s) would be caused as the wave would not 'rest' on any part of the negative during reel rotation.

Of course I could be completely wrong and my thoughts nonsensical!!!!
regards
Tony

Right. Makes great sense. Let's just call them mysterious processing artifacts experienced in rotary processing of 4x5 inch black & white film with a Jobo processor i.e. CPE2+ using Jobo 2500-series tanks and specifically the 2509 and 2509n reels. Bear with me if I use some barn-yard terms -- I am just a country boy :)

You are right to point-out the definition of "surge" and wave action. Perhaps you could use your fluid dynamics knowledge to unravel why so many users have problems with the 2509n reels. I do not have an example to share; rather I am searching to find information on materials and process from users who do not experience the problem, so that I may replicate their positive results.

tonyowen
20-Oct-2015, 02:27
Perhaps you could use your fluid dynamics knowledge to unravel why so many users have problems with the 2509n reels.

No idea.

This thread is about surge marks when using the 2509n reel. Therefore I’m assuming surge marks do not occur during ‘correctly used’ tray or stand development.

Stand development can be done with 2509N reel, and in both stand and tray development the negatives are fully submerged in the liquid for the total processing time.

Therefore the only difference between the three forms of film development is that rotational development causes the film to continuously pass into and out of, the liquid for the duration of the development time.

The ‘wings’ when fitted to the 2509N are much thicker than film and are at right angles to the film. Therefore, the wings act as bridge cut-waters (used to guide river flow around bridge piers) and cause turbulence of the developer.

With or without wings slower rotation of the drum is better than faster rotation as any turbulence would be less.

Similarly, four films fitted in the innermost and outermost positions would cause less turbulence those six films, since the restriction to (film) movement into and through the liquid flow is less.

If the surge marks –whatever these are – are caused by local and (per-rotational-cycle) repeated agitation of the fluid then shorter rather than longer development time might minimize that effect.

Not knowing exactly what is meant by, or the magnitude of, surge marks (hence request for illustration) I am not aware that my 2509N processing (four films, no wings, and 5 minute development) produces that effect.

Regards
Tony

tonyowen
20-Oct-2015, 06:00
[QUOTE=tonyowen;1283025]The ‘wings’ are at right angles to the film/QUOTE]
Typo, please ignore
regards
Tony

pchaplo
22-Oct-2015, 17:39
Duolab123 successfully processes with XTOL in 1520 and 1530 tanks and up to 3 x 2509 reels with only 1 sheet per reel.

Chauncey successfully processes fully-loaded (6 sheets of 4x5) in one 2509n reel (with wing installed) in a single-reel tank using a Jobo CPP2 processor that reverses rotation direction. Chauncey uses PMK Pyro and avoids Photoflo, opting for Edwal LFN instead.

Let me know if I represented your successes accurately and thanks!

Duolab123
22-Oct-2015, 18:42
Duolab123 successfully processes with XTOL in 1520 and 1530 tanks and up to 3 x 2509 reels with only 1 sheet per reel.

Chauncey successfully processes fully-loaded (6 sheets of 4x5) in one 2509n reel (with wing installed) in a single-reel tank using a Jobo CPP2 processor that reverses rotation direction. Chauncey uses PMK Pyro and avoids Photoflo, opting for Edwal LFN instead.

Let me know if I represented your successes accurately and thanks!

YOU CAN'T FIT A 2509N REEL INTO A 1500 SERIES TANK. I USE A 2523 OR 2553 1 OR 2 REELS, 6 SHEETS PER REEL, WITH A CPP2 PROCESSOR. I USE XTOL SOMETIMES STOCK SOMETIMES DILUTED 1&1 BUT AS WAS NOTED EARLIER BY HUUB FOR XTOL YOU NEED AT LEAST 100 mL OF STOCK FOR EACH 80 SQUARE INCHES OF FILM. SO FOR 12 SHEETS 300mL STOCK AND 300 mL WATER, AT 68F OR 20C THATS 9 MIN AND 15 SEC, TOTAL DEVELOPMENT TIME.

pchaplo
23-Oct-2015, 20:27
YOU CAN'T FIT A 2509N REEL INTO A 1500 SERIES TANK. I USE A 2523 OR 2553 1 OR 2 REELS, 6 SHEETS PER REEL, WITH A CPP2 PROCESSOR. I USE XTOL SOMETIMES STOCK SOMETIMES DILUTED 1&1 BUT AS WAS NOTED EARLIER BY HUUB FOR XTOL YOU NEED AT LEAST 100 mL OF STOCK FOR EACH 80 SQUARE INCHES OF FILM. SO FOR 12 SHEETS 300mL STOCK AND 300 mL WATER, AT 68F OR 20C THATS 9 MIN AND 15 SEC, TOTAL DEVELOPMENT TIME.

Duolab123, THANKS! I appreciate you sharing the details of your success. My apologize for the error. Thanks for clarifying.

ps: Wondering: Does your CPP2 reverse like Chauncey's? I wonder if that is part of the success. If so, can a CPE2 can be modified to reverse?

Paul

koh303
23-Oct-2015, 21:12
Duolab123, THANKS! I appreciate you sharing the details of your success. My apologize for the error. Thanks for clarifying.

ps: Wondering: Does your CPP2 reverse like Chauncey's? I wonder if that is part of the success. If so, can a CPE2 can be modified to reverse?

Paul

All Jobo processors are built to reverse the rotation direction ever 1.5/2 turns, including the CPE2.

onnect17
23-Oct-2015, 21:19
Paul, the CPE2+ does reverse rotation. No need to MOD.
I would suggest to contact other members in the area owning a CPE2 to help you to get started with the Jobo. Also, did you searched for "cpe2 video" in Google?

pchaplo
25-Oct-2015, 17:02
All Jobo processors are built to reverse the rotation direction ever 1.5/2 turns, including the CPE2.

Thanks, I had the wrong information.

pchaplo
25-Oct-2015, 17:05
Paul, the CPE2+ does reverse rotation. No need to MOD.
I would suggest to contact other members in the area owning a CPE2 to help you to get started with the Jobo. Also, did you searched for "cpe2 video" in Google?

Yes, I watched some videos but at the time wasnt looking at the drum rotation but focused on the process. I am going to sell the 1526 tank that came with my Jobo and get a 2500-series tank and 2509n reel so that I can find out first-hand. If I could find a local (Dallas - Fort Worth) Jobo user to teach me over coffee that would be awesome! Great idea!