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View Full Version : Getting back to 8x10, looking at Arca Swiss



Ari
16-Oct-2015, 09:21
After a few months without 8x10, I'm starting to get the itch again.
MF is great, digital fills a need, but 8x10 is my favourite, by a long shot.

I'm looking to get back into the format by the new year, and I'd like something light but rock-steady; a wood camera is not on my radar, it has to be metal.
To that end, I've been looking at Arca-Swiss cameras.
There's a dizzying array of models and accessories, and not much information online, so I'm hoping someone here can at least point me in the right direction.

Apparently, there are a few 8x10 models that weigh about 4kg and fold down compactly; these use a telescoping rail and are a monorail/field hybrid.

Price aside, is there a model/series I should look at? Older cameras are fine with me, and the price would certainly be better, but information is my priority at the moment.

Thanks in advance.

jeroldharter
16-Oct-2015, 14:39
Ari,

I had an older Arca Swiss 8x10, the silver ones, something like the Arca "C". It was OK, but heavy and no comparison to the newer F-Line series (which I had in 4x5).

A basic Arca Swiss F-Line 8x10 is a great camera. The next step up is the 8x10 Metric which has geared movements (rise and shift) which is really nice. Weighs more and costs more but I would get that if I could. The next level up is the F-Line Micrometric Orbix which is like the metric but includes geared front tilt. That is a great feature but it is a type of center tilt and I never used it that much. So unless you really need that feature you should pass because it adds a lot to the cost.

Another thing to consider is bellows length. The standard bellows and focus rail length might limit focal length. For example, you should verify that you have enough extension 450 and 600 mm lenses if you use lenses in that range. The other thing to be aware of: although they compact well for carrying, they are oddly shaped because of the rail. It is not a big deal, but the camera is not like a regular box field camera and is more of a challenge to fit properly in your pack.

If you can tolerate the massive weight and relatively short bellows, the Toyo 8x10 MXT is a good option. Built like a tank. My favorite 8x10 was Wehman. They are not rock solid like an Arca, but they are solid, pack well, have long bellows extension, are very easy to use, have asymmetrical rear swing which is very useful, and are almost free relative to an Arca. But they are no longer manufactured and don't come up used too often.

Ari
16-Oct-2015, 14:55
Hi Jerold,
Thank you for all the information.
I like the idea of keeping things simple, the F-line sounds like a good possibility. I have lived this long without geared movements, so not having them is ok.
Yes, bellows extension is important, as I use lenses as long as 600mm, and carrying/packing the camera is important, too.

Weight is also an issue; I did use a Toyo 810M for a number of years, and only recently had to sell it because of a hip problem. I loved the stability and smooth action, but the weight was problematic these last few months.
I did once consider the Wehman, but opted for the 810M at the time.

Am I correct in assuming that an F-Line component (i.e. rear standard) is compatible with, say, a Metric?

EDIT: I just found the Precision Camera Works website, it has a lot of good background information, but I'd still like to hear from any of you that have direct experience with an AS 8x10 - good or bad.
Thanks again.

Daniel Stone
16-Oct-2015, 16:04
8x10 Arca's don't come on the market that often these days. I had an F-line(bought it from a fellow member here). Great camera, lightweight, but for me, I needed center tilts, not base tilts. So I sold it.

TBH, the most ergonomic, packable/easy to store camera that I've used/owned was a Phillips. The current, almost identical version is the Chamonix. Not "cheap", but you can probably pick one up brand new cheaper than buying a used F-line with an "unknown" background of use/ownership.
You'll get bellows compatibility from wide to long, so a 600mm lens shouldn't be an issue.
Just my 2¢ of course ;)

-Dan

Drew Wiley
16-Oct-2015, 16:29
Phillips cameras are getting ridiculously expensive, though I must admit mine has held up superbly after all these years of outdoor torture, and it was one of the
first Dick Phillips ever made. New Chamonix cameras are reasonable by comparison and look like a worthy substitute, being based on the Phillips concept. So it
the Wilderness brand, though I've never actually seen one of those. Lots of good choices out there. Even a couple of Wehmans have turned up lately, another
lightweight alternative design. People seem to prize Arcas, so they don't come cheap; but I prefer the Sinar system for monorail usage due to the abundance of
components to choose from.

Peter De Smidt
16-Oct-2015, 17:09
I'd get a basic f-line. The controls are all very smooth. I borrowed a 4x5 for about 6 months a few years ago. F-lines are my favorite location monorails by far.

Sal Santamaura
16-Oct-2015, 17:19
...Yes, bellows extension is important, as I use lenses as long as 600mm...Did you keep the Cooke triple? If so, you'll need a fair bit more than 600mm of bellows to focus the front cell alone closer than infinity.

macolive
16-Oct-2015, 18:04
Did you keep the Cooke triple? If so, you'll need a fair bit more than 600mm of bellows to focus the front cell alone closer than infinity.
If you buy brand new, I believe you can customize your order to have the longer bellows. You can also customize the order to have a longer bench/rail.

I currently have the F-metric 4x5 and I was thinking of getting the 8x10 format set plus a longer rail. So that would give me two interchangeable systems. If I ever needed more bellows extension, I could get another carrier and frame to connect the 8x10 bellows and the 4x5 bellows. Not that I think I would ever need it.

Ari
16-Oct-2015, 18:51
8x10 Arca's don't come on the market that often these days. I had an F-line(bought it from a fellow member here). Great camera, lightweight, but for me, I needed center tilts, not base tilts. So I sold it.

TBH, the most ergonomic, packable/easy to store camera that I've used/owned was a Phillips. The current, almost identical version is the Chamonix. Not "cheap", but you can probably pick one up brand new cheaper than buying a used F-line with an "unknown" background of use/ownership.
You'll get bellows compatibility from wide to long, so a 600mm lens shouldn't be an issue.
Just my 2¢ of course ;)

-Dan

Thanks, Dan; field cameras have that distinct advantage over other cameras: easy storage, quick to set up, etc etc. I've been through all of the metal field cameras, and my friend's Canham JMC 810 was light and relatively small.
Build quality was ok, and that's where the Toyo 810M sparkled, but that got quite heavy after a mile or two.


Phillips cameras are getting ridiculously expensive, though I must admit mine has held up superbly after all these years of outdoor torture, and it was one of the
first Dick Phillips ever made. New Chamonix cameras are reasonable by comparison and look like a worthy substitute, being based on the Phillips concept. So it
the Wilderness brand, though I've never actually seen one of those. Lots of good choices out there. Even a couple of Wehmans have turned up lately, another
lightweight alternative design. People seem to prize Arcas, so they don't come cheap; but I prefer the Sinar system for monorail usage due to the abundance of
components to choose from.

Thank you, Drew; having gone through many metal cameras, I figured the Arcas were worth a look.
A Philips just doesn't make sense at current pricing, and even though the Chamonix is its modern kin, I can't bring myself to get a camera that uses wood.
I've looked at Wilderness, they are interesting, but, spoiled as I am, I was looking for something lighter (under 10 pounds), and the Wilderness clocks in at 12 pounds.
If money were no object, I'd take a hard look at a customized (950mm bellows) Gibellini.


I'd get a basic f-line. The controls are all very smooth. I borrowed a 4x5 for about 6 months a few years ago. F-lines are my favorite location monorails by far.

Got an email from Rod Klukas, and he also recommended I look at the F-Line. Thanks, Peter.


Did you keep the Cooke triple? If so, you'll need a fair bit more than 600mm of bellows to focus the front cell alone closer than infinity.

I did keep it, Sal; I knew I'd return to 8x10 eventually, and the Cooke is not so easily put aside. Last time I used the 646mm cell alone, I needed almost 800mm of extension to get the shot in focus.
I also kept the Schneider 150 XL, and those two lenses will be all I would likely need.


If you buy brand new, I believe you can customize your order to have the longer bellows. You can also customize the order to have a longer bench/rail.

I currently have the F-metric 4x5 and I was thinking of getting the 8x10 format set plus a longer rail. So that would give me two interchangeable systems. If I ever needed more bellows extension, I could get another carrier and frame to connect the 8x10 bellows and the 4x5 bellows. Not that I think I would ever need it.

Would that I could buy brand new, but that is regrettably not an option.
How do you like your 4x5 F-metric?

koh303
16-Oct-2015, 19:01
If not an arca - KMV?
You should just get a new one if you can find it used... $$$$

Michael Kadillak
16-Oct-2015, 19:07
I marvel at the incessant need for change particularly when it becomes a circular loop. I have four 8x10 cameras after my first experience with the format years ago and they will stay with me to the end because I know intuitively they are instruments of my vision. Time and time again I read of experienced photographers that divest of a format and in no time want to come back to nearly precisely where they left the party. The camera and the accessories are only pawns in the process holding the lens and the film holders in rigid orientation of the photographers choosing. It is the resulting print image that at the end of the day that rules. I sincerely hope that you figure it all out and this time just relax and enjoy the art form.

Ari
16-Oct-2015, 19:08
If not an arca - KMV?
You should just get a new one if you can find it used... $$$$

No KMV, been there before, and I think there are much better options; thanks for the suggestion.
A Wehman would be an interesting option for a field camera, and a lot less expensive than a new Arca kit.

Ari
16-Oct-2015, 19:25
I marvel at the incessant need for change particularly when it becomes a circular loop. I have four 8x10 cameras after my first experience with the format years ago and they will stay with me to the end because I know intuitively they are instruments of my vision. Time and time again I read of experienced photographers that divest of a format and in no time want to come back to nearly precisely where they left the party. The camera and the accessories are only pawns in the process holding the lens and the film holders in rigid orientation of the photographers choosing. It is the resulting print image that at the end of the day that rules. I sincerely hope that you figure it all out and this time just relax and enjoy the art form.

Not so much that, Michael; keeping my Toyo became impractical after injuring my hip (I like to walk a lot with the camera).
After selling the Toyo, it seemed like a good time to take a break from both 8x10 and the forum as well.
I'm certainly on the mend, but I'm forced to look for a lighter camera this time around; I was beginning to wonder if carrying the Toyo on my back all those times may have exacerbated, or even led to, my hip problem.
And the art form itself is still enjoyable, I have a Fuji GX680 system to keep me honest.

BarryS
16-Oct-2015, 19:34
No KMV, been there before, and I think there are much better options; thanks for the suggestion.
A Wehman would be an interesting option for a field camera, and a lot less expensive than a new Arca kit.

Definitely reconsider the Wehman--it's a real bargain for a beautifully-designed camera. I can also recommend a good therapist to get over your wood aversion. :rolleyes: The Chamonix 8x10 is very rigid and precise--probably more so than the Wehman (which is also excellent). The Wehman has a wood back and a composite front frame and extension, and looks like the love child of a view camera and a filing cabinet--but it's a great camera. Don't expect an over-engineered metal monster. It's a gross simplification to think of the Chamonix as a wood camera and the Wehman as a metal camera--both designers intelligently used a variety of materials to suit different functions.

Ari
16-Oct-2015, 19:37
Well, I do have a thing for filing cabinets... :p
Thanks, Barry.

macolive
16-Oct-2015, 20:10
Would that I could buy brand new, but that is regrettably not an option.
How do you like your 4x5 F-metric?

I love it! But then again, I'm an architect so I'm a sucker for precision. I would have probably been ecstatic with the M line but too rich for my blood.

Peter De Smidt
16-Oct-2015, 21:09
I prefer the F-line. We had an M in the studio....Meh.

Alan Gales
16-Oct-2015, 21:43
Well, I do have a thing for filing cabinets... :p
Thanks, Barry.

Ari, if you ever feel like a road trip then drive over to my house and I'll let you try my Wehman. I've even got a Technika board adapter so if your Cooke is on a Technika board you can try it on the camera. :)

macolive
16-Oct-2015, 21:58
I prefer the F-line. We had an M in the studio....Meh.
Well then that's good for me then. I think the M is really meant for studio work.

Ari, I've seen quite a few arcas for sale (usually 4x5) but they mostly have the 171mm frame, which is slightly heavier.

Andrew Plume
17-Oct-2015, 04:53
Hi Ari

........and good to hear that you're recovering

the question is?...........how long are you willing to wait for an Arca to show up and although the older well used ones do turn up now and again on the European eBay sites, they've usually had pretty heavy use

Igor currently has five on his website...........one is a KMV but I expect you've already had a look over on there

best regards

andrew

biedron
17-Oct-2015, 05:13
I have an 8x10 Arca Swiss F and I like it very much. My 4x5 is also an AS, so it was natural for me to go the same route in 8x10. Both operate the same way, which I view as a big plus. My 8x10 has the larger 171mm front frame, which I also view as an advantage over the current 141mm front frame since with an adapter board I can use the much smaller 110mm lens boards that my 4x5 takes. Pretty sure there are adapters for Technika style boards too.

The AS 8x10 is a great camera, if you can find one - they don't come up for sale used that often. I got a really good deal on one a couple of years ago - needed some work, but I sent it to Precision Camera and they got it back in shape.

Bob

Daniel Unkefer
17-Oct-2015, 06:29
How about an 8x10" Sinar Norma?
I understand they were made by Arca for Sinar.
I have one and love it to bits.
I imagine Arca parts and accessories are not easy to find.

Michael R
17-Oct-2015, 07:06
Ari, here's Fred Newman giving a quick demo of an 8x10 F-Metric. As said above the Metric is a step up for perhaps not directly applicable here, and the one in this video also has the Orbix option (not necessary in my opinion), but at least this gives you a rough look at the system.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTh0S86pcU

Here's a catalog which explains the system progression and options (bellows, collapsing rails etc.).

http://www.rodklukas.com/resources/Arca-Swiss_Camera-System.pdf

Michael Kadillak
17-Oct-2015, 17:31
Not so much that, Michael; keeping my Toyo became impractical after injuring my hip (I like to walk a lot with the camera).
After selling the Toyo, it seemed like a good time to take a break from both 8x10 and the forum as well.
I'm certainly on the mend, but I'm forced to look for a lighter camera this time around; I was beginning to wonder if carrying the Toyo on my back all those times may have exacerbated, or even led to, my hip problem.
And the art form itself is still enjoyable, I have a Fuji GX680 system to keep me honest.

I you have a hip problem and are legitimately blaming the 8x10, you better stick with the Fuji GX680 because the camera is singularly not the culprit. It is the augmentation of the other necessary components. Any 8x10 is going to fall into your unable to physically execute category and that just is what it is. I draw the line at a mile with my 32# V11 Deardorff in a backpack but will extend for special circumstances. Even at my advanced age there is no better medicine than the gym at least 3-5x a week with serious weight training.

Ari
26-Oct-2015, 10:03
I love it! But then again, I'm an architect so I'm a sucker for precision. I would have probably been ecstatic with the M line but too rich for my blood.


I prefer the F-line. We had an M in the studio....Meh.


Ari, if you ever feel like a road trip then drive over to my house and I'll let you try my Wehman. I've even got a Technika board adapter so if your Cooke is on a Technika board you can try it on the camera. :)


Well then that's good for me then. I think the M is really meant for studio work.

Ari, I've seen quite a few arcas for sale (usually 4x5) but they mostly have the 171mm frame, which is slightly heavier.


Hi Ari

........and good to hear that you're recovering

the question is?...........how long are you willing to wait for an Arca to show up and although the older well used ones do turn up now and again on the European eBay sites, they've usually had pretty heavy use

Igor currently has five on his website...........one is a KMV but I expect you've already had a look over on there

best regards

andrew


I have an 8x10 Arca Swiss F and I like it very much. My 4x5 is also an AS, so it was natural for me to go the same route in 8x10. Both operate the same way, which I view as a big plus. My 8x10 has the larger 171mm front frame, which I also view as an advantage over the current 141mm front frame since with an adapter board I can use the much smaller 110mm lens boards that my 4x5 takes. Pretty sure there are adapters for Technika style boards too.

The AS 8x10 is a great camera, if you can find one - they don't come up for sale used that often. I got a really good deal on one a couple of years ago - needed some work, but I sent it to Precision Camera and they got it back in shape.

Bob


How about an 8x10" Sinar Norma?
I understand they were made by Arca for Sinar.
I have one and love it to bits.
I imagine Arca parts and accessories are not easy to find.


Ari, here's Fred Newman giving a quick demo of an 8x10 F-Metric. As said above the Metric is a step up for perhaps not directly applicable here, and the one in this video also has the Orbix option (not necessary in my opinion), but at least this gives you a rough look at the system.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTh0S86pcU

Here's a catalog which explains the system progression and options (bellows, collapsing rails etc.).

http://www.rodklukas.com/resources/Arca-Swiss_Camera-System.pdf

Thank you all for the kind, helpful replies; I'm considering an F-Line with 15cm and 40cm rails.
Andrew, I've been in touch with a couple of people and we'll see if we can do a deal in the near future, but to have something by early 2016 would be fine.
Alan, I may show up unexpectedly one day.
Daniel, thank you, I did consider the Norma, but it's a little heavy for me right now; I do love them as well, and their poor cousin, the Toyo G.
Peter, thanks, the M is out of my range anyway.
Bob, Michael, macolive, thank you.