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senderoaburrido
13-Oct-2015, 11:28
I'm a young person looking at immersing myself in large format photography. I have years of experience with 35mm and 6x6, and now I'm looking to take my passion further.Took a few books out of the university library. Over the past two months a pile of notes has accumulated from my readings on view cameras. The only caveat is that I work minimum wage (albeit with tremendous savings), and I've got some budget concerns.

I'd really like to get a hefty 8x10, which would probably clear out my savings. Perhaps it would feel well worth it, though. I've considered a 4x5, but my worry there is that by the time I decide I want to try out another camera, I might not be able to get enough resale value out of it to recoup enough cash to upgrade. This is complicated by the fact that many of the brands and models detailed in the books I've read no longer exist. The used equipment remaining from before is then contrasted against modern equipment, like Chamonix or Calumet, which I have absolutely no knowledge of. So where ought I begin? Considering the tenuous future of film negative production, would this be a poor investment?

Jac@stafford.net
13-Oct-2015, 11:37
First, welcome.


I've considered a 4x5, but my worry there is that by the time I decide I want to try out another camera, I might not be able to get enough resale value out of it to recoup enough cash to upgrade.

I'll put this out there for possible correction. IMHO values of 8x10 cameras are more likely to fall than 4x5 because they are expensive to feed. Regarding which camera, all you need to start making technically good images is a light-proof bellows (or the ability to patch a few pinholes) and all the fasteners, locks in good order. Others can speak to lens selections. An inexpensive used view camera is still an adequate camera, and it's easier to move away from inexpensive when you are more experienced.

BrianShaw
13-Oct-2015, 11:45
Hi and welcome!

Jac's hypothesis on the future value of 8x10 cameras rings true to me. But why do you want 8x10? To me it is not only 4x bigger film but a 4x bigger hassle to use. Without a good reason it might not be worth the hassle... and can be a lot more expensive to procure. And please also think about the word "investment". One generally does not buy camera equipment with any kind of realistic expectation of increased value; recouping purchase cost is hard enough and often impossible.

But my bottom line is to buy what you want and need to make the kind of photos you want to make. Being frugal is good, but being too frugal too soon is not.

Tin Can
13-Oct-2015, 11:59
Where are you at? Some places have more gear than others.

If you are really low budget, make a camera. study DIY and Pinhole in this forum and all Internet.

Start with X-Ray film, study that right here on this forum.

Many here love X-Ray film.

Read everything you can. It takes time. I started LF 4 years ago I am still a novice.

brucetaylor
13-Oct-2015, 12:13
Budget concerns? A nice Calumet 4x5, a lens and some holders might run about $250 USD if you're careful. Then get some sort of developing tank if you don't have a darkroom, another $50-100. Buy cheap film or use xray, and you're done. Triple that to get something usable in 8x10. You can easily sell the 4x5 gear later (probably for what you paid for it) if you don't like it.

B&W negative films will be around for a long time. In terms of "investment"-- you can usually re-sell your gear for about what you paid for it if you're careful, don't expect better than break-even and you'll be fine.

peter schrager
13-Oct-2015, 12:16
Go as big as as you can..redundancy of buying equipment over and overl...I've done it; learn from my mistakes

Jim Galli
13-Oct-2015, 12:22
With a group this weekend in the E. Sierras (Jim Fitzgerald) doing awesome work on Xray film ~ 8X10. Jim had a bunch of his carbon prints. Gorgeous. 8X10 will be around as long as people still want to make contact prints with enough size to have some presence.

And, there's never been a better time, as prices are diminishing because of so many old timer's bailing out.

If you want your work to have "signature" 8X10 is the viable hold out to computer stuff. Explore soft focus. 8X10 and soft focus = brute force.

djdister
13-Oct-2015, 12:54
Cost, portability and ease of use can be significant factors between your selection of 4x5 or 8x10. Have you also considered what you intend to do for output - conventional photo printing or digital printing? If you choose conventional photo processing, shooting 8x10 means contact printing only unless you buy an 8x10 enlarger (which will set you back space and cost wise), whereas 4x5 enlargers can frequently be found on Craigslist and elsewhere, and won't consume your darkroom nearly as much (what is your plan for setting up a darkroom?). On the other hand, if you intend to scan and print the images on an inkjet printer, shooting 8x10 is massive overkill. 4x5 negs scan very well and can be printed quite large via your inkjet printer. Jumping into 8x10 without really understanding all of the associated cost and logistical ramifications could be a mistake. Despite what some may say, it isn't trivial to just sell off your LF equipment at the same price that you paid for it. There is almost always some depreciation, even in the used market, and even in this forum's "For Sale" listings. You should beg, borrow or rent some LF equipment and see what you can do with it first, before jumping in blindly.

senderoaburrido
13-Oct-2015, 13:00
A big issue budget wise for me is that I live in Montreal, and our dollar is worth nothing (77 cents against USD) right now. This is why I'd like to be careful money wise. A $400 dollar camera is $500, a $600 dollar camera is nearly $800, etc.

Jim Jones
13-Oct-2015, 13:05
My first decent LF camera was a 5x7 Burke & James flatbed, to which I soon added a 4x5 back for practical enlarging. That B&J was a mainstay for maybe 25 years, and is yet occasionally used. One shouldn't have to pay more than US $100 for a comparable camera without a lens today. With a suitable lens (not a 127mm or 135mm lens from a press camera with limited covering power) they can be an even better buy. Lens boards are easy to improvise. When shopping for any view camera, be sure it comes with the necessary original components such as a tripod mount or extension rail. If you track the prices of cameras of interest that actually sell both here and on ebay, you'll get to know about what price to buy or sell at. I expect only a modest change in value over several years.

Rather than compare older cameras to the newest offerings, just consider what they are capable of. Even inexpensive old view cameras are capable of almost any photograph that the newest and best cameras can produce. They may be less convenient, and may be more (or less) finicky in some adjustments. Some of the greatest photographs of previous generations were captured by cameras that would be considered junk today. If your interest in LF photography persists, your first LF camera will likely not be your last. Consider it as part of your education. With hands on experience, you'll be far more prepared to buy a second camera, if needed. If you bought carefully, that first camera with a well written ad and perhaps a few examples of photographs it produced, should sell for about what you paid. You might even keep it for it's best features, and supplement it with a camera with different capabilities. Over many decades I've accumulated press, flatbed view, and monorail view cameras for those photographs for each type excels.

Greg Y
13-Oct-2015, 14:40
Sender....If budget is a big issue... it's wise to take a look at film prices. In Canadian dollars 100 sheets of Ilford FP4+ is about $166. 100 sheets of ilford 8x10 film is $585. The world is your oyster for inexpensive used equipment. Lots of free enlargers. All you really need is one lens, a camera, and a few holders. If you settle on a budget, I'm sure you can get good suggestions for direction here. You're not going to be burning it like 35mm...but film size does make a difference.

Tim Meisburger
13-Oct-2015, 14:43
Ya, all good advice, I think. If I were you I would start with an inexpensive 4x5 to get used to the view camera work flow. It takes a while and might be prohibitively expensive in 8x10. Once you have it down, the same process (more or less) will work with any format.

If you can find a B&J for $100 as Jim suggests, that would be a great start, but I think they might go for more like $250.

brucetaylor
13-Oct-2015, 15:02
Took a quick look on ebay, a Calumet 4x5 and a lens easily for $200 US. 8x10 camera/lens really starts at about $800 if you're lucky, and 8x10 holders and film are expensive (so add another $400 plus you'll likely need a tripod and head to support them).

jp
13-Oct-2015, 15:20
Which camera to get depends on your uses. Portraits? Old barrel lenses? architecture? Landscapes? A wide variety of affordable cameras exist for different purposes. And 4x5 holds it's value quite well as it's basically bottomed out by now.

Jac@stafford.net
13-Oct-2015, 15:38
Start with simple and economical so you may experience the realities. It is better to rethink than refinance.

Jody_S
13-Oct-2015, 16:16
A big issue budget wise for me is that I live in Montreal, and our dollar is worth nothing (77 cents against USD) right now. This is why I'd like to be careful money wise. A $400 dollar camera is $500, a $600 dollar camera is nearly $800, etc.

Buy locally, you will save both the currency exchange and shipping (and customs fees, on items like cameras). There's a camera show coming up in a few days: Montreal Camera Shows (http://www.therangefinder.com/camera-shows.html)

The show is not specialized in large format, but there are usually several sellers with lf items. I personally sell a few lenses each show, but I rarely bring cameras or any of the other gear you'll need. Still, if you see someone with a bunch of old lenses behind plexiglass, feel free to stop and chat, and get my opinion on any other gear you may be considering buying from other sellers. You will find most sellers helpful in terms of compatibility, helping put together everything you need, etc. Large format is a small club, we like to encourage newcomers any way we can.

X-Ray film in Canada: I buy off eBay, I get 3 100-sheet boxes shipped in a 'Medium Flat Rate Box', usually for a total of about $130 US. That gives me 300 shots in 8x10 or 1200 shots in 4x5 if I cut the film. That's cheaper than trying to keep up with the latest digital whatever.

Greg Y
13-Oct-2015, 17:03
Sender...Tell us if you've decided on contact printing, enlarging or scanning & non-analog printing...silver gelatin or alt processes? The camera is just a box...as previously suggested...many photographers turn out great work with what some might consider junk cameras. My 5x7 Deardorff was made in 1938....I have no plans to replace it.

John Kasaian
13-Oct-2015, 17:27
Lots of way to go, even on a budget.
8x10 will be difficult and expensive to feed (especially film, film holders, big lens, a sturdy enough tripod, chemicals, but no need for an enlarger.) 4x5 will be the least costly---you can find good, old school monorails for under $200 here in the US and film will be a lot cheaper, also less chemicals but you'll have to commit to either scanning or adding an enlarger, not necessarily a prohibitive expense but I haven't heard of anyone fishing a D-2 out of a dumpster in quite awhile. They do take up room though! Maybe you have a school or community dark room available to use? The other route I'd consider is an old 5x7. Prices for these are all over the place and you may find one competitive to 4x5 cameras--just do the homework and don't get stuck with a loosey-goosey. Small, teeny tiny pinholes in corners can be easily patched. Paper or cut down x-ray film is pretty cheap. You'll use a bit more chemicals than a 4x5. You'll need better tripod and three or so film holders. With patience you can usually find deals. Older lenses that will cover are out there as well, and 5x7 makes a nice size contact print which spares you the expense of an enlarger or scanner.
It sounds like a fun adventure you're considering. Good luck and keep us posted!

Deval
13-Oct-2015, 17:48
I started with 4x5 and decided to stick with it. It satisfies every aspect of the contemplative/meditative process that is large format, with giving me an option of enlarging at a reasonable cost as well. You will know when you want or need to go larger...Even if you found a reasonable 8x10, the cost associated with making every image is quite a bit more. If you get tired of 4x5, you could sell your used kit for nearly what you buy it and get 8x10 later.

One piece of advice, get ready to slow down either way you go...
A single day on 6x6 may yield you all 12 exposures just because it isn't hard to get through a roll. A single day on Large Format may yield you no exposures if its not worth planting your tripod.

Peter De Smidt
13-Oct-2015, 18:13
What do you want to photograph?

Alan Gales
13-Oct-2015, 22:05
If you buy a camera and a lens used and later decide to sell you should get most of your money back if you bought at a fair price. This goes for 4x5 or 8x10.

If you want to shoot 8x10 you can pick up a battleship grey wooden Burke and James camera pretty cheap like a few hundred dollars. A 300mm f/5.6 lens in shutter can be had for about $300.00. Film holders in usable shape will run you $60.00 or more a piece for the later plastic versions. Wooden ones can be found cheaper. You can find a wooden Berlebach or metal Majestic tripod for less than $200 that will support an 8x10 camera.

What is going to get you is film costs. B&W isn't bad but color is expensive. You are going to burn through some film learning the process.

I shoot 8x10 b&w and 4x5 color. I own a 4x5 reducing back for my 8x10 camera.

If you really want to shoot 8x10 and can afford it then go for it. If you are unsure then start with 4x5.

AtlantaTerry
14-Oct-2015, 10:15
...

Took a few books out of the university library. Over the past two months a pile of notes has accumulated from my readings on view cameras.

...

Stop being academic. LOL!

Get a 4x5" camera (a Crown/Speed Graphic is a good start), a couple lenses and start taking pictures.

Then if you like the process you can always look for an 8x10" setup.

letchhausen
14-Oct-2015, 10:56
I'll second what others are saying that starting with 4x5 is the way to go. The film costs are much lower and there are plenty of darkrooms around where you can print a 4x5 negative but finding somewhere to print an 8x10 negative is more difficult. Unless you just want to contact print those. I have printed my 4x5 negs up to 30x40 and had lightjet prints made up to 40x50 and they look great. I've been shooting 4x5 for 8 years now and though I've had an interest in 8x10 I haven't gotten there yet. Mainly because I don't have the space for a darkroom. I do have the space for a lightbulb and silver chloride paper contact printing.....small trays....

The other thing is that I've run all over the country with a small backpack and a 4x5 and even have put together a mini-pack using a Crumpler million dollar shoulder bag. With 8x10 your load, tripod etc are going to be more difficult to handle.

My first 4x5 camera was a Tachihara which is super lightweight though it's bellows doesn't go that long and it doesn't support the most robust movements. After I became more proficient and really need more movements I got an Ebony SV45U and have been happy as a clam with that for 5 years now. But I think think it's a fact of life that one starts with one thing and ends up with another. I'm glad I started simple and then upgraded as my skills improved. It also allowed me time to think about whether I wanted to try out a monorail and I did and decided against it. I find it easier myself to work with the Ebony. I have a friend who loves his Arca Swiss monorail so that's a matter of preference but he also started out with a Tachi.

Jim Galli
14-Oct-2015, 11:44
I'll go on record saying a Crown or Speed Graphic is a bad place to start. There are hundreds of old monorails for same or less $$ that let you get your feet wet with movements while you read and try to figure it out. I started with a Cambo and 210mm Symmar. A very forgiving place to begin. Tons of movements and a sharp sharp lens that never runs out of image circle in a modern reliable shutter. You need those good first fruits. Later on you can make fuzzy horrible pictures if that's where the journey takes you.

AtlantaTerry
14-Oct-2015, 20:54
I'll go on record saying a Crown or Speed Graphic is a bad place to start. There are hundreds of old monorails for same or less $$ that let you get your feet wet with movements while you read and try to figure it out. I started with a Cambo and 210mm Symmar. A very forgiving place to begin. Tons of movements and a sharp sharp lens that never runs out of image circle in a modern reliable shutter. You need those good first fruits. Later on you can make fuzzy horrible pictures if that's where the journey takes you.

Jim,

Are you saying using a Crown/Speed Graphic will result in fuzzy horrible pictures?? :confused:

I beg to disagree. One can make bad pictures with a Cambo, Sinar or any expensive camera.

I created these character portraits of actors with a Crown Graphic on the set of the forthcoming feature film "Doin' Time":
141043 141044 141045

Alan Gales
14-Oct-2015, 21:09
I think what Jim is saying is that Speed and Crown Graphics lack any back movements and have limited front movements. They are great cameras for what they were designed to do but there are better options for learning camera movements on. A monorail is the easiest camera to learn with because you have all the movements and everything is straight forward.

Jim Galli
15-Oct-2015, 06:01
Jim,

Are you saying using a Crown/Speed Graphic will result in fuzzy horrible pictures?? :confused:



NO. Saying later on you can do those by choice. And spend a ton of money doing it. Check out my web site. Saying Crown and Speed are not good learning platforms.

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2015, 07:47
NO. Saying later on you can do those by choice. And spend a ton of money doing it. Check out my web site. Saying Crown and Speed are not good learning platforms.

But it depends on one's goals and the type of photographs they intend to make, doesn't it? Many folks have done quite well with learning on a press camera, and for some that camera type fully satisfies their needs. So far the OP has only indicated a desire for bigger negs... not movements or any of the other benefits that come with LF.

p.s. I, too started with a Cambo and 210... and still use it. Later I acquired a couple of press cameras... and use those more than I use a real view camera. Different strokes...

Bob Salomon
15-Oct-2015, 07:52
Jim,

Are you saying using a Crown/Speed Graphic will result in fuzzy horrible pictures?? :confused:

I beg to disagree. One can make bad pictures with a Cambo, Sinar or any expensive camera.

I created these character portraits of actors with a Crown Graphic on the set of the forthcoming feature film "Doin' Time":
141043 141044 141045

What view camera movements did you use when you took these pictures? To me it looks like there was nothing done on the camera that would have prevented these to have been taken with any fixed lens camera, even a Minox!

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2015, 07:55
What view camera movements did you use when you took these pictures? To me it looks like there was nothing done on the camera that would have prevented these to have been taken with any fixed lens camera, even a Minox!

Not speaking for AtlantaTerry... but what does it matter, Bob? I take similar pics almost always without movements. But I mostly want a bigger neg to print with alt processes. That alone is just as good a reason to use a view (or any other kind of LF) camera as any.

Jim Galli
15-Oct-2015, 08:00
Arguing for the sake of arguing. I love my 5X7 Speedy. Put crap lenses on it and make fuzzy pictures by the scores. But I said, it isn't a good learning platform and I will stand by that. Unless your goal is to be weegee the great.


But it depends on one's goals and the type of photographs they intend to make, doesn't it? Many folks have done quite well with learning on a press camera, and for some that camera type fully satisfies their needs. So far the OP has only indicated a desire for bigger negs... not movements or any of the other benefits that come with LF.

p.s. I, too started with a Cambo and 210... and still use it. Later I acquired a couple of press cameras... and use those more than I use a real view camera. Different strokes...

Bob Salomon
15-Oct-2015, 08:09
Not speaking for AtlantaTerry... but what does it matter, Bob? I take similar pics almost always without movements. But I mostly want a bigger neg to print with alt processes. That alone is just as good a reason to use a view (or any other kind of LF) camera as any.

The OP said that he wants to learn large format. That usually means that he wants to learn the advantages of large format cameras. The most obvious advantage in your case is a larger piece of film. But that is only one advantage. There is also the control a view camera gives the shooter through tilts, swings, shifts. And techniques like controlling the plane of sharp focus. Or the control of parallel lines.

You can't really learn those techniques properly with a press camera. That is why you would use a view camera or some technical cameras.

Liquid Artist
15-Oct-2015, 09:34
There are 1 or 2 LF shooters around Montreal who I am sure would go out with you for a short shoot and let you try their cameras.
For that mater we are all over Canada, and most of us have more than one camera.
The hardest part is finding someone that can also help you develop your negatives, so you can see your results. You can have some labs print them easily enough, so I would not worry about that.

There are some LF deals out there.
I just had a Kodak Master View 4x5 pretty much given to me.
Since I had a pretty much identical Calumet already I gave it to a friend.
It came with 4 film holders, which I traded for 4 loaded film holders plus 2 lenses.
So he got everything he needed to start for free, plus I can still help him develop the film.

senderoaburrido
15-Oct-2015, 10:13
I'm back again, to ask some questions, mostly looking to flesh out what the books really haven't told me. Sorry for being so spotty with replies. I work evenings and it messes with my schedule.

Are brand differences important? One poster mentioned here that "it's just a box"- I'd be inclined to think so myself. However I am confused by people discussing the pursuit of intentionally fuzzy or soft photographs. I did not know that was a thing, and I'm not sure that's what I'm really after. Are some generally known for quality or sharpness while others not-so-much? I've noticed a lot of names with which I am not familiar being thrown around, like Sinar, Calumet, Crown, etc.

Someone said above that camera movement is important. Coming from medium format, that is a big interest of mine. I'd really like to experiment with the image manipulations that independent back and front positioning provides. So ideally the camera I choose would offer stability (in being able to hold swung/tilted positions) and a wide degree of movement (in swinging and tilting both lens and rear).

Is there a significant distinction in capability between monorail cameras and others? What little education I've received from outdated literature indicates to me only two real 'types' of large format, "field" and "monorail". Are there other kinds? What is each design best suited for?

Peter: I have a disparate photographic range of interest. I'd like to do a lot of close up, product-type photography, as the books I've read indicate large format was well suited for it. This stems directly from my recent Hasselblad macro projects. Additionally, I want to pursue portraiture and landscape photography. Landscape is something I have done before, where as portraiture is a practice I have little background in. I'd very much like to hone my skills in portraiture, and make my photography portfolio a little more human in the process.

Peter De Smidt
15-Oct-2015, 10:27
Given what you want to do, a monorail camera would be a very good choice. As others have said, they tend to be more capable, more movements, more extension, more accessories....all at the cost of (generally) more bulk.

There are a whole bunch of great monorail cameras, but there are some gotchyas like accessory compatibility, spare parts, being able to check for proper function.... I agree that a good option would be getting together with some local photographers and having them show you their cameras.

Sinar, Toyo, Linhof, Cambo, Horseman....all made great cameras, although there are some trade-offs. One advantage of Sinar is that it's a huge system, and there are a lot of cameras and accessories available for a reasonable amount. For all-around use, a Sinar F2 or a Sinar Norma would be good choices. If you were just doing studio work, or work very close to a car, than a P or a P2 are terrific, but they're very heavy. Service is still available. I use a Sinar P2 in the studio.

Toyo makes some great cameras. I have a Toyo field camera, a 45AX, as my main field camera, but I haven't used a Toyo monorail. Toyos are very well built, and service is still available.

Linhof made (and still makes) some really cool cameras. Compatibility between models and accessories is a little less than Sinar, and so you have to do a lot of research to make sure you get what you need.

Horseman cameras are in some ways Japanese versions of Sinar. Some of the parts are inter-changeable.

If you look at the LF homepage, there are lots of articles on the various cameras.

Deval
15-Oct-2015, 10:43
You generally can't go wrong with most choices. As with everything there is a compromise on each system. Ditto on monorail if you plan on keep withe camera in a studio type setting with the occasional dragging out to the field(unless you have a penchant for punishment which most lf photographers do). If you are attracted to landscape, save your back and get a field camera. It does well for portraits as well as tabletop to a limit. So I'd choose on the percentage of what you would like to shoot. If you are 50/50 I'd still say get a field camera or both. Brand matters less for any reputable brand as it is just a dark box. Outside of in accurate focusing Lenses can alter sharpness. Film flatness can alter sharpness. Misaligned groundglass is less common but a possible source of issues.

senderoaburrido
15-Oct-2015, 10:55
Unfortunately I don't even have a license to drive. I'm a bit of a hiker, and I usually to where I'm going by bike, a friend's car, or public transit. So portability is nice, although I think myself strong enough to carry 10-20 kilos on my back, if that's the kind of weight I'd be looking at. I do understand that I might be naive in thinking that by strength alone I could transform a studio camera into a view camera, portability wise.

Film flatness is one of the things the first manual I rented from the library warned of. Is that, or misaligned ground glass a common issue with used models? Should I be getting most things I purchase appraised or assessed after the purchase in order to ensure they don't need repairs?

Peter De Smidt
15-Oct-2015, 11:09
I would have an experienced person look over a camera system before you buy it. Yes, ground glass can be mis-aligned. Film holders might not hold the film at the right place....

Something like an F2 or Norma can be placed in a back pack. I used to carry a Sinar P in a wooden box bungeed to an external back pack frame.

Jim Galli
15-Oct-2015, 11:43
Film plane and ground glass distances are critical but easily measured (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/14663-how-measure-ground-glass-film-plane-differences.html) by yourself.

Remember that your advance to large format is actually a retreat to equipment at it's basic level. These cameras were designed so that the user could solve almost every problem.

Mono-rail cameras are ubiquitous and cheap precisely because they are inelegant and ungainly to walk with. I've walked all over the place with a monorail camera . . . when I was younger ;)

Liquid Artist
15-Oct-2015, 11:58
All 5 LF cameras I've owned have given me nice sharp images without messing with the ground glass. So I don't think it's something you should really worry about.

As for brand differences. They all do the same thing. If I was looking I would look for something with a Large Lens board plus an adapter to something easier to find like a Linhof.
That way you'll be able to use most larger diameter lenses and still have an easy to find lens board option.

Bob Salomon
15-Oct-2015, 12:27
"Linhof made (and still makes) some really cool cameras. Compatibility between models and accessories is a little less than Sinar, and so you have to do a lot of research to make sure you get what you need."

Not so. Virtually all Linhof Kardan cameras from the original Super Color and the B system through today's Linhof Kardan cameras all use the same boards, gg, Fresnels, viewing accessories, compendiums, etc.

All that don't, from the original Kardan 45 to today's TK 23 and 45 take the same lens boards and the gg and back accessories, including the Fresnels, are exactly the same as the ones for the Kardans.

The current standard and wide angle bellows for the current Kardan cameras fit all interchangeable Linhof Kardan 45 cameras - except one - back to the original Kardan Super Color and Bi system cameras.

So Linhof does have a very extensive system of compatible accessories for their view cameras.

BrianShaw
15-Oct-2015, 13:12
Arguing for the sake of arguing. I love my 5X7 Speedy. Put crap lenses on it and make fuzzy pictures by the scores. But I said, it isn't a good learning platform and I will stand by that. Unless your goal is to be weegee the great.

Arguing for the sake of arguing. :D

You have your opinion and I have mine. Different and both valid. But now that OP has clarified in post 36 that movements are the goal... you win.

Jim Jones
15-Oct-2015, 15:22
. . . What little education I've received from outdated literature indicates to me only two real 'types' of large format, "field" and "monorail". Are there other kinds? What is each design best suited for? . . .

The distinction between types of large format cameras is blurred. Long ago flatbed field cameras were the norm. Within that class there are many variations. A hundred years ago the Speed Graphic, similar to today's press cameras, appeared. Two of the later American competitors were Burke & James and Busch. Some press cameras eventually acquired some of the advanced versatility of view cameras and are usually called technical cameras. Linhof Technica is a prime example. The American Meridian camera and the British MPP camera are somewhat similar, rarer, and less expensive. Then there are a variety of monorail cameras. The number and variety of available large format lenses is even greater than the number and variety of cameras. Not any one of all of these types and brands are ideal for every situation a photographer may encounter. We must balance between price, features, and availability. Homework can narrow the choices appropriate to a beginner, but eventually one must buy or borrow some equipment, and acquire the experience necessary to make the best decisions.

John Kasaian
15-Oct-2015, 19:33
I agree with Mr. Galli.
I'll stand by the Calumet CC-400 and Graphic View for a first LF camera.
My first LF camera was a Speed Graphic and I still have one (5x7) but for the money, in 4x5 you can do far more learning for far less $$ with an old monorail (other than hand held, of course!)
I still have a Graphic View II----I gave my CC-400 to a friend. Both are excellent cameras.

Alan Gales
15-Oct-2015, 19:44
I agree with Mr. Galli.
I'll stand by the Calumet CC-400 and Graphic View for a first LF camera.
My first LF camera was a Speed Graphic and I still have one (5x7) but for the money, in 4x5 you can do far more learning for far less $$ with an old monorail (other than hand held, of course!)
I still have a Graphic View II----I gave my CC-400 to a friend. Both are excellent cameras.

Great choices. I added Cambo, later Calumets, Horseman and Toyo. They can be had for not much more money. I prefer Sinar but it sounds like the OP is on a really limited budget.

senderoaburrido
16-Oct-2015, 10:22
The more you guys explain things to me, the more I realise that most of these books I read were just technical manuals that focused on practicing large format photography. They didn't offer much in the way of actual equipment information. Are there indexes that I can use to delineate this matter of which lens boards/back boards match which camera? I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance, picking a monorail that has plenty of remaining boards to choose from and a wide variety of lens boards to switch between.

I have absolutely no idea of the optics, either. I'm assuming there is a slight difference in focal distance vs. actual image appearance, as there is with medium format lenses. On gauging the breadth of lenses available, and their specific classes or functions, though, I possess no knowledge.

Are simple fotopro tripods compatible, or stable enough to use with a large format camera, or will I likely need something more beefy?

This weekend sometime I'll have to sit down and do a lot more reading. Then I can draft a shopping list and see what I can fit in my budget. I've set my budget at 1500$ for the whole kit. I gotta' get a camera bag too, because the one that fits my cameras is probably not big enough.

Deval
16-Oct-2015, 10:45
The more you guys explain things to me, the more I realise that most of these books I read were just technical manuals that focused on practicing large format photography. They didn't offer much in the way of actual equipment information. Are there indexes that I can use to delineate this matter of which lens boards/back boards match which camera? I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance, picking a monorail that has plenty of remaining boards to choose from and a wide variety of lens boards to switch between.

I have absolutely no idea of the optics, either. I'm assuming there is a slight difference in focal distance vs. actual image appearance, as there is with medium format lenses. On gauging the breadth of lenses available, and their specific classes or functions, though, I possess no knowledge.

Are simple fotopro tripods compatible, or stable enough to use with a large format camera, or will I likely need something more beefy?

This weekend sometime I'll have to sit down and do a lot more reading. Then I can draft a shopping list and see what I can fit in my budget. I gotta' get a camera bag too, because the one that fits my cameras is probably not big enough.
Definitely check out the front page of the website. It goes through a lot. Basics are loupe, camera, lenses mounted to appropriate lens board, film and film holders. Dark cloth is useful but a jacket will work. Spot Meter is also a very nice thing but you could start with a camera with built in spot meter. Get what you can in budget. It's like swimming. All the theoretical choices in the world mean nothing until you get in the water.

djdister
16-Oct-2015, 10:46
You should look through a lot of the camera and lens reviews and comparisons on this page http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Jim Galli
16-Oct-2015, 12:09
Ebay is littered with these little 4X5 outfits. This one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALUMET-CC-400-MONORAIL-4x5-CAMERA-W-CALTAR-S-II-5-6-135mm-COPAL-NO-0-LENS/231711490574?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33432%26meid%3Dc1c1130e3f214f0db7e3e63d2ad420ea%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D321882487125) has a particularly nice lens. Caltar SII was a Schneider Symmar. Lens boards for the CC400 series were proprietary and you have to locate extras for other lenses in the future. 135 is a wide - normal. This one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CALUMET-CC-400-4x5-CAMERA-Outfit-Caltar-lens-film-holders-film-and-MORE-/321882487125?hash=item4af1b0f955:g:~xMAAOSwNgxWDqpT) comes with some film and holders and loupe and dark cloth. Everything you need to start learning from your mistakes like the rest of us did. The lens on that second one isn't as good as the first one I highlighted. It's a Rodenstock but in the era it was produced, the Rodenstocks were prone to cell seperation failure. It's a convertible though and gives you both 150mm and 400mm to play with.

Pierre 2
16-Oct-2015, 12:10
You can also check your private mail :-)

Deval
16-Oct-2015, 12:13
The more you guys explain things to me, the more I realise that most of these books I read were just technical manuals that focused on practicing large format photography. They didn't offer much in the way of actual equipment information. Are there indexes that I can use to delineate this matter of which lens boards/back boards match which camera? I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance, picking a monorail that has plenty of remaining boards to choose from and a wide variety of lens boards to switch between.

I have absolutely no idea of the optics, either. I'm assuming there is a slight difference in focal distance vs. actual image appearance, as there is with medium format lenses. On gauging the breadth of lenses available, and their specific classes or functions, though, I possess no knowledge.

Are simple fotopro tripods compatible, or stable enough to use with a large format camera, or will I likely need something more beefy?

This weekend sometime I'll have to sit down and do a lot more reading. Then I can draft a shopping list and see what I can fit in my budget. I've set my budget at 1500$ for the whole kit. I gotta' get a camera bag too, because the one that fits my cameras is probably not big enough.
To answer the question about your tripod, it depends. Monorail can be heavy. Not sure what the load capacity on your tripod or head is... You could always try and get a new one if you decide you like it. Definitely try to spend a weekend day with someone local... It will answer more questions than you know to even ask

Alan Gales
16-Oct-2015, 12:54
The more you guys explain things to me, the more I realise that most of these books I read were just technical manuals that focused on practicing large format photography. They didn't offer much in the way of actual equipment information. Are there indexes that I can use to delineate this matter of which lens boards/back boards match which camera? I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance, picking a monorail that has plenty of remaining boards to choose from and a wide variety of lens boards to switch between.

I have absolutely no idea of the optics, either. I'm assuming there is a slight difference in focal distance vs. actual image appearance, as there is with medium format lenses. On gauging the breadth of lenses available, and their specific classes or functions, though, I possess no knowledge.

Are simple fotopro tripods compatible, or stable enough to use with a large format camera, or will I likely need something more beefy?

This weekend sometime I'll have to sit down and do a lot more reading. Then I can draft a shopping list and see what I can fit in my budget. I've set my budget at 1500$ for the whole kit. I gotta' get a camera bag too, because the one that fits my cameras is probably not big enough.

The later Cambos and Calumets take the same metal lens boards. The older Calumets took a smaller board. Horseman and Sinar take Sinar metal boards. Toyo takes Toyo boards. The boards are drilled Copal 0, 1 or 3 so you just buy the brand of board you need for your camera with the the hole size you need for your Copal 0, 1 or 3 shutter. There are lens shutters that don't fit these holes but that is not something for you to worry about yet.

Later Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, Fuji, and Caltar lenses in modern Copal shutters are all plenty sharp and contrasty. Don't worry about brand. Let price and condition be your guide as to which to buy. Faster lenses are easier to use but slower lenses are smaller and lighter. A nice big 210mm f/5.6 lens would be cheap and perfect to learn with. Of course a 135mm, 150mm, or 180mm will work well too. You get the best bargain buying someone's kit with camera, lenses, film holders, etc. included.

Monorails do not all weigh the same. I just sold a Calumet monorail that weighed 8lbs. My Sinar P weighs a lot more than that! Weigh your camera and buy a tripod that will easily accommodate it with your heaviest lens attached.

Your budget is plenty if you plan properly and buy most everything used.

senderoaburrido
25-Oct-2015, 10:38
Got another question: is there any where else that I could commonly find large format equipment beyond eBay? Or is eBay really the most abundant and reliable place?


Lastly, what am I looking for in, and how much is a loupe? Is it absolutely necessary?

Peter De Smidt
25-Oct-2015, 11:13
You have a bunch of choices: here in the FS section, Apug's FS section, Keh.com, BHPhoto.com, Adorama.com, Craigslist.......

A loupe is helpful for focusing. Some people use reading glasses instead. You don't have to buy a super expensive one.

Jody_S
25-Oct-2015, 18:56
Lastly, what am I looking for in, and how much is a loupe? Is it absolutely necessary?


I use +3.25 reading glasses from the Dollar store. I prefer these to a loupe, as I need both hands usually to hold the dark cloth closed and adjust the camera. I do not have a third hand to hold a loupe to the ground glass. If your eyesight is better than mine, you may do better with a pair with less magnification, as they will allow you to see more of the ground glass as you focus. I used to focus without a loupe when I started, but I have to stand 3 feet away from the camera now to do that.

Ps.: enjoyed our chat at the show today. I had a decent, cheap Nikon loupe for sale, but I suggest you try the reading glasses first. Get 2 or 3 different magnifications, experiment to see what suits your eyesight. They're $1 each, go crazy.

senderoaburrido
27-Oct-2015, 11:23
[QUOTE=Peter J. De Smidt;1284156]You have a bunch of choices: here in the FS section, Apug's FS section, Keh.com, BHPhoto.com, Adorama.com, Craigslist.......

Where's the FS section here? I tried looking in "community" but it doesn't show up. Must I be a subscribing member, like for APUG?

Jody: Thanks for the advice! I have an actual glass magnifier with a glass cup, and I think it is meant for entomology or text, but I'll give it a go as well.

I'm assuming my little fotopro tripod might not be able to hold a monorail, but all the tripods that people talk about on the forums look like they're 250+. What are my options as a minimum wager?

Peter De Smidt
27-Oct-2015, 13:13
You have to be a member for 30 days before you can see the for sale section.

John Kasaian
27-Oct-2015, 13:34
Keh Camera is good. The FS forum here is good as well.
For a tripod, old monorails like the Calumet 400 and Graphic Views do nicely on a Tiltall, about $70-80-ish used.
Loupes, linen testers, reading glasses all work. Use what you're most comfortable with.

ImSoNegative
29-Oct-2015, 17:30
I have an 8x10 that I pretty much just use for portraits and I shoot xray film which is the perfect film for my salt prints. I shoot 4x5 for landscapes

senderoaburrido
30-Oct-2015, 13:46
Alan:
So I ended up with a Cambo/Calumet monorail, later model (I'm assuming), without lens boards. I couldn't find any markings on the frame, so it's unclear to me which specific model it is. Subsequently, I'm unsure how to tell which lensboards would fit it without trying them in person, which is obviously not feasible if buying over ebay.

A lot of the lensboards, even going back about a month in completed listings, are about 50$ CDN a piece. Can I go a bit lower if I'm patient? Two of the lenses I've ordered come in linhof technika boards, too, and I'm wondering if it might be worth the cost to just get an adapter so I can use both existing boards.

Jim Jones
30-Oct-2015, 14:54
The adaptor may be a wise long-term purchase. Measure the size of the lens board recess to tell whether you have an older or newer monorail. The older ones use 4" square boards that are easy to improvise. Someone who is more up-to-date than this old fogey can tell you the size of the later Cambo/Calumet boards.

senderoaburrido
30-Oct-2015, 15:24
Are there indexes of serial numbers, and then serial numbers somewhere on the frame? A cursory glance didn't expose any, but I might have missed something.

AtlantaTerry
30-Oct-2015, 18:41
Burrito:

Relax. Don't worry so much about the different models of 4x5" Cambo cameras. It really doesn't matter. The big difference is the rail. Older rails (SC model) have a four-sided square profile, the newer ones (Ultima) are sort of a star shape. My 4x5" Cambo cameras use the older square profile rail. (I would love to know why they changed the design of the rail.) Now that you have a Cambo you will not need to to worry about the rail again. Most all of the Cambo accessories will fit old or new model cameras.

Go to this Cambo website so you can see the two rail types:
https://www.cambo.com/en/view-cam/traditional-4x5/

The Cambo lens board is about 6 inches square and heavy metal. To save weight and packing size to help when you are carrying the equipment on your back, put your lenses on a small thinner metal board such as those for a Crown Graphic which is about 4" square and weighs only a few ounces. Then have one lens board on your Cambo with an adapter that will accept the smaller boards. That's how I have been doing it since the '70s. Also, that means I can use the lenses on any of my Cambo or Crown Graphic cameras. My lenses that are not on Crown boards are wide angles which (a) are too wide to work well on the Crown Graphic and (b) need to be on a recessed lens board.

Yes, you can find deals on used Cambo lens boards if you are patient. I have paid as low as US $10 but most have cost me about US $20. But I don't need Cambo boards since most of my lenses are on Crown boards that I can buy new for about $15.

You will find it useful to have lens tools on hand so if you buy a lens that comes on a board you can remove it. (Sell the old board if you don't want it.) Or if you buy a lens without a board, you can mount it on one. Lens wrenches go for about US $15 on eBay. I like the style with angled tips. Also, while you are shopping on eBay, pick up a couple spare lens retaining rings: Copal #0, #1 and #3 to have on hand in case of need.

Watch for used 4x5" sheet film holders in decent condition. I wait for bulk deals and pay about US $8 to $10 each + shipping. Yes, some are damaged or junk but there haven't been that many.

From what you have written, I am not sure if your tripod is going to be strong enough to hold your Cambo + monorail + lens + shutter + sheet film holder + dark cloth + compendium steady. A not very scientific test is to put the camera system onto the tripod when it is at a height you would typically use. Then give the camera a poke with your finger. Does the whole assembly wobble and shake? There is your answer. (Ideally, little to nothing should happen.)

While watching eBay and here for deals on Cambo gear, look for a bag bellows (for wide angle lenses), a spare normal bellows and a compendium. While you may not need these now, you may at some point. So if you come across a good deal, consider adding it to your kit. BTW, this is how GAS works. :)

AtlantaTerry
30-Oct-2015, 20:44
Have you tested the bellows of your recent Cambo purchase for light leaks? You might want to examine it closely prior to putting the camera to work. Take the camera into a dimly lit room then stick a flashlight inside. Move it around. Any light leaks will be obvious. Be sure to stretch the bellows out to near it's maximum length. The folds and corners are the most likely places to leak light.

senderoaburrido
30-Oct-2015, 22:29
I'm going to give the bellows a quick look this weekend. Currently trying to comb through local sources of equipment, because I've gotten seriously dinged by import fees on the two lenses I purchased. I've spent, together, about a tenth on import fees and a fifth on shipping alone. Preferably the lens boards and the tripod could be found this side of Quebec/Ontario (re: Ottawa-Montreal) so that I can forego the worst of shipping costs. I don't even want to know how much shipping a tripod would cost, and my trust in Canada Post is meager. And our dollar's worth nothing. Don't mean to make this too political, but I am oh-so-grateful our dollar was pinned to oil prices.

Duolab123
31-Oct-2015, 00:07
I agree there's no better way to start than with a nice Crown Graphic, if you buy a nice one that the rangefinder is clear and calibrated, you can hand hold, use roll film backs. Their a blast to get started, There not really intended for doing a lot of corrections. But man its nice to have the 4x5 negatives. And people are practically giving away nice enlargers with color heads that can be used for printing variable contrast paper or just do 4 x 5 contacts. They are little jewels.

invisibleflash
31-Oct-2015, 06:18
OP, when investment comes to mind it does not usually go with being a photog. Sure some make it big, but most do it for love and money be damned.

senderoaburrido
31-Oct-2015, 09:46
OP, when investment comes to mind it does not usually go with being a photog. Sure some make it big, but most do it for love and money be damned.

Oh, I understand that. My use of 'investment' seems to have been taken quite differently from how I had meant it. I'm investing in my own hobby activities; in my enjoyment and good mental health. It's not about getting returns other than that. I've really loved doing film photography since I was 10 or so, and this seems like the next natural step.

John Jarosz
31-Oct-2015, 11:01
What kind/size of prints do you want to make?

8x10 & larger can do nice contact prints large enough to view easily

4x5 almost certainly needs an enlarger.

Yes, film is more expensive for 8x10, but x-ray film is a viable option (at least) to start.

Are you interested in silver prints or some alt process? Alt process needs large negs because almost all are contact prints. If you want color, that will have to wait until you get up to speed with LF. And color is hideously expensive.

Once you are here for 30 days you can access the buy & sell area. That's the best place to get LF gear.

John

Alan Gales
31-Oct-2015, 11:50
Alan:
So I ended up with a Cambo/Calumet monorail, later model (I'm assuming), without lens boards. I couldn't find any markings on the frame, so it's unclear to me which specific model it is. Subsequently, I'm unsure how to tell which lensboards would fit it without trying them in person, which is obviously not feasible if buying over ebay.

A lot of the lensboards, even going back about a month in completed listings, are about 50$ CDN a piece. Can I go a bit lower if I'm patient? Two of the lenses I've ordered come in linhof technika boards, too, and I'm wondering if it might be worth the cost to just get an adapter so I can use both existing boards.

I just measured a Cambo board and it is just shy of 6 1/2" square. Either the Cambo or Calumet boards will work. Fifty dollars is high. I'd want to pay around $20 per flat board plus shipping. Sometimes you have to be patient watching Ebay.

The Cambo/Calumet to Linhof Technika reducing boards are the way to go in my opinion. That way you can mount all your lenses on common aftermarket Technika style boards. This makes lens storage easier because the smaller boards take up less space. A huge plus is that if you later buy a field camera you can swap the lenses back and forth between cameras. A lot of field and technical field cameras use Technika style boards. Toyo uses a little larger Toyo board but Toyo to Technika reducing boards are available.

Jim Fitzgerald
31-Oct-2015, 12:00
With a group this weekend in the E. Sierras (Jim Fitzgerald) doing awesome work on Xray film ~ 8X10. Jim had a bunch of his carbon prints. Gorgeous. 8X10 will be around as long as people still want to make contact prints with enough size to have some presence.

And, there's never been a better time, as prices are diminishing because of so many old timer's bailing out.

If you want your work to have "signature" 8X10 is the viable hold out to computer stuff. Explore soft focus. 8X10 and soft focus = brute force.

Jim, thanks for the nice words. I agree with Jim when it comes to 8 x 10. Great for contact prints. If you want to enlarge maybe 4 x 5. How will you show your work?

tonyowen
1-Nov-2015, 09:11
Alan:
So I ended up with a Cambo/Calumet monorail, later model (I'm assuming), without lens boards. I couldn't find any markings on the frame,.

I've a Calumet CC401 (square sectioned) monorail.
If your purchase is the same camera then the lens boards are 4 inch x 4 inch and can be made from wood around 1/8th inch thick.
[The metal ones have a raised ridge (total thickness 1/4 inch) that gives stiffness to the die cast lens board, but the portion that fits into the camera and the portion where the lens fits are both 1/8th thick]

Another thing to consider is that the Calumet cameras were manufactured to imperial sizes (NOT METRIC) so whilst metric is close to some imperial dimensions (ie 3mm & 1/8th inch (you will need imperial allen keys etc etc.

On the same assumption, the serial number on my camera is on top of the swing plate on the front standard that sits on the side-to-side movement plate.
However, the Calumet frames and slides can be assembled either way around, so the serial number (on your camera) could be hidden by the shadows from the bellows.

regards

Tony

senderoaburrido
1-Nov-2015, 17:56
Thanks Alan. That definitely does jive with the fact that my two lenses came with technika boards anyway. I'll save up a few weeks for the adapter board, then.

8x10 is definitely something for the future. I've looked at the prices on the glass, though, and boy is it pricey nonetheless. I'll keep an eye out for deals.

Another thing I've been looking at is slapping a bellows on my Canon digital and using the shorter lenses, just for fun. Though, once again, the bellows is an item that costs trop cher. So many awesome things to ogle, but only so much in funds to leverage. I'd need a second job or some crazy overtime to even think about some of these things. If only my grandfather'd left me an 8x10 instead of a Nikon F1.

Jody_S
1-Nov-2015, 19:13
Another thing I've been looking at is slapping a bellows on my Canon digital and using the shorter lenses, just for fun. Though, once again, the bellows is an item that costs trop cher

You should be able to buy a Chinese EOS-M42 adapter and M42 bellows for less than $50 including shipping, off eBay. Just be patient for the bellows, you will find a deal if you look regularly.