The Jump To 14x17: Worthwhile?

[Bruce E. Rathbun]

It has finally happened. My 11x14 has turned into an 8x10....or so it seems. That only took a few years. After working with the 11x14 I now crave a larger negative. The 14x17 would be as large as I would want to go. The 16x20 is a tad large and beefy for what I am looking for. So maybe the 14x17 could do the job. The lens selection that I have would carry over to the 14x17 as well. There would be the need to buy additional holders. A reducing back would still allow me to use 11x14 as I do not want to give that format up. Has anyone else made the jump from 11x14 to 14x17? If so was it worth the jump? As this is a very pricey move opinions are welcome. Horror stories or otherwise. Maybe I should just be happy and stay with the 11x14. It is a great sized negative......but so would a 14x17. :)

-Bruce

[Christian Olivet]

Bruce,

I am too considering moving up. My 8x10 has become a 4x5. I was consirering formats to move on to and so I started taping sheets of paper from my computer printer together to help me to visualize the size and ratio of the different formats that are available. So far I have made sheets in 5x12, 7x17, 8x20, 11x14, 12x20. Of course the 12x20 is lovely in size and ratio, but a true monster.I feel I may be limited in the range of uses with the 12x20. The 11x14 seems very nice but not much of a difference to 8x10, so now that you mentioned the 14x17 format I am curious. Who makes cameras in that format?

14x17 is only two square inches smaller than 12x20 and its diagonal is about an inch shorter. Are you sure you can use your lenses with such large image circle?

[Jan Van Hove]

Hi Bruce,

It seems to me like a move from 11x14 to 14x17 is not a very large size increase, it's a simple "step-up" from 11x14, just like 11x14 is a setp-up from 8x10 (well, it actually is less of a step from 11x14 to 14x17 than from 8x10 to 11x14... at least logistics-wise, since the problems of ULF like film availability are already present at 11x14...(I'm an 11x14-er myself...)).

14x17 is a nice format since the aspect ratio is close to what you are already used to, 16x20 is a little more squarish...
If you contact print on 16x20 paper, 14x17 leaves some room around the image to breathe, which is always nice.

Now, 14x17 does feel bigger in print than 11x14, but I fear that the small step up will leave you unsatisfied and wanting more... If you trade in your 11x14 system for the 14x17 to minimize the investment, this might be a not too expensive move, especially if you manage to find a classic 14x17 camera (there aren't many of them, but it can be done...) just be careful and think about the possibility of going as big as you can afford, so you won't feel too small too soon...

There are other classic formats that are interesting also, 18x22 comes to mind, but that's another ballgame, and if you consider 16x20 to be too large, then 18x22 is out of the question I guess...

12x20 might be also a format to consider, of course the aspect ration is completely different, but with cameras having horizontal-only backs, 12x20 cameras tend to be considerably smaller than 16x20 or even 14x17... so it gives you more film surface per camera weight...

Just my take on it, good luck with the upgrade !

PJ

[John D Gerndt]

I have not gone the route you question, rather I made the jump from 8x10 to 12x20. Yes, it is a monster. I had considered the 14x17 but it does not work well with the standard 20x24 paper. All this to say I would rather have made to move to 11x14, the area you are considering leaving, or even 7x17; there is a point where bigger gets too big!

The second point that often gets overlooked is that you might be able to get a conversion back for your 11x14 to try it out. First, find your film holders, then see about getting a back made. There are craftspersons out there who can do these sorts of things...

Cheers,

[Jay DeFehr]

I am currently building a 14x17 camera, because that is the largest size that I find practical, which is a foreign concept in ULF. I decided that for prints larger than 14x17, I will be happier enlarging from 8x10. 14x17 is a great portrait format, and allows me to use reduction backs in 11x14, 10x12, 7x17, etc. Another consideration, which might be lunacy, is that 14x17 vertical process cameras are common, and sell very cheaply, or sometimes even given away, and I'm thinking of building a VCCE LED enlarger head for one, which would allow me to enlarge all of the above formats. 2x enlargements of the above formats would yeild prints: 22x28, 20x24,14x34, and 28x34. If I can build the enlarger for a few hundred $$, I think it would be worthwhile.

Jay

[Michael Kadillak]

The LF realm beyond 8x10 is like an addiction. If you find the experience pleasant (and many discover that just the logistical issues are lunacy) the boundaries can become fuzzy and we can find ourselves exporing the limitations of our capacities of size, weight and cost because our culture and our consumption economy is driven on the premise that if "X" is good twice or three times "X" is even better. Even listening to others experience with this format contains a natural amount of personal bias that unless you know the individual, must be taken in the correct context.

I have found that there are visual points of diminishing returns that are reinforced by logistical issues that one needs to ascertain in their work and by what and how they "see". What could be a limiting factor for one could be a breakout event for another. It is all up to the individual, but somewhere along the line the words "thats enough" will ring true. When one looks over a year of work and the images produced, one format will dominate and others will be subordinate to varying degrees.

There is no substitute for experience. I say go for it and let us know how it works for you.

Cheers!

[George Losse]

Bruce,

Who's 11x14 are you using. If it's the same make as your 8x20 then they also make a conversion back for the 11x14 to convert it into a 12x20, just like they do with the 8x10 to 8x20.

I went from 8x10 to 11x14 and was disappointed with the difference. There was not much of an print size increase compaired to the format BS increase. Maybe if it had been 16x20 then the format size bs would have been justified by the print size increase. I would think that 14x17 might not be enough of a change. Why not think about 16x20? the costs between the 14x17 and the 16x20 are not going to be that different.

[Bill_1856]

It's not often that one reads of someone who wants to use 11x14 as a reducing back. My hat's off to you!

[Kerik Kouklis]

Do it! If you're comfortable with 11x14, the logistics of 14x17 are comparable, and the gain in print size is more than worth the effort. A 14x17 hanging on the wall has MUCH more presence than an 11x14, IMO. I've used every format from 4x5 through 12x20, and 14x17 has become my go-to. I was lucky enough to find a circa 1900 Anthony and Scovill 14x17 w/3 holders about 4 years ago for ~$1,500. The camera itself only weighs about 19 pounds and is a joy to use. It even survived FALLING OFF of my tripod (due to my own stupidity and a worn tripod mount). Luckily, I was set up on grass, which cushioned the fall. I thought I was going to need CPR, though! Go for it! It's only money, for crying out loud!

www.kerik.com

[Tin Can]

14X17 cameras?

As I have 14X17 film holders I am considering restarting my 14x17 project

I think only one of these members remain active

My goal is not a field camera, but a portrait studio camera, that can handle my new lenses

Conversion of my Levy copy camera probably the easier path

My 2013 post is here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104102-Levy-Process-camera-11x14-DIY-film-holder-mod)

Since then I put a Calumet C1 8X10 back on it for testing lenses, but that is way too small and the front lens board is also too small, I converted it to Sinar size, which CAN be made to work, but I worry about tiny screws being over whelmed with huge lenses, I will need to make things bigger

The good part about the Levy is the front standard is very very strong with great bellows

I have plenty of X-Ray film to use

I can barely lift it a few feet...

[ic-racer]

My first experience with a "process camera" was a lens in a wall leading to a dark room. The copy to be photographed was in the light area and the dark room had a moveable easel that would accept any number of film formats. Thus no need for any bellows or film holders. In fact I thought all process 'cameras' were like this until I saw stand-alone process cameras on the internet in the 1990s.

[diversey]

Randy: I bought a 14x17 film holder as you suggested and look to buy a 14x17 film back to use it on my Argyle 18 process camera. Let me know how you do yours this time. Thanks, David

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156187-Build-a-studio-camera-from-an-Argyle-18-process-camera


14X17 cameras?

As I have 14X17 film holders I am considering restarting my 14x17 project

I think only one of these members remain active

My goal is not a field camera, but a portrait studio camera, that can handle my new lenses

Conversion of my Levy copy camera probably the easier path

My 2013 post is here (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104102-Levy-Process-camera-11x14-DIY-film-holder-mod)

Since then I put a Calumet C1 8X10 back on it for testing lenses, but that is way too small and the front lens board is also too small, I converted it to Sinar size, which CAN be made to work, but I worry about tiny screws being over whelmed with huge lenses, I will need to make things bigger

The good part about the Levy is the front standard is very very strong with great bellows

I have plenty of X-Ray film to use

I can barely lift it a few feet...

[Michael Wellman]

Earlier this year I took a Carbon Transfer class with Jim Fitzgearld. He has a 14X17 and I fell in love with the format for many of the reasons you stated. I ordered one from Richard Ritter and hope to have it in the next month or two. Looking forward to getting it and putting it thru the paces.

[Tin Can]

Yes David I will let you know

Spent today trying lenses on the Levy Camera focusing them at 18" and 30 ft, almost max possible in studio, meaning the camera is in the kitchen looking at the living room wall, I can get 35' with more work, about the same as last studio in Chicago, my shed gives me 40' inside, the trailer infinity

Levy has only 35" of bellows, too short for my Petzval Portrait plans, I tried a 18" Top Hat lens extension 7 years ago, now wish I had not given it away to that fellow at our last meet up, way back then...he did want it!

I think I am just going to use this thing as it was made for

Meaning close focus magnification aka Macro greater than 1-1

Right now I have a 305 G Claron (https://static.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section04LgFormatLenses.pdf) on it with a 8X10 back at 150% magnification on 8X10, but once I make a 14X17 DIY back that would be close to 1.5 to 1 Macro on 14X17. I like Macro, indoor sport

Which this all means to me, is I now have to disassemble my SC11 Deardork and move the inside Packard shutter farther back, 1/2" so my Petzval will not foul my Packard shutter, a lot of work for .5", but I will also change out the 4.5" Packard for a NOS in box, I bought some years ago

The current one sticks open and I am tired of removing the back and poking it, most of my Packard don't stick, a new one is too slick!

PTL for engrossing hobbies

Lastly David, I will be able to use the Levy to photograph people after I add flash sync






Randy: I bought a 14x17 film holder as you suggested and look to buy a 14x17 film back to use it on my Argyle 18 process camera. Let me know how you do yours this time. Thanks, David

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156187-Build-a-studio-camera-from-an-Argyle-18-process-camera

[Luis-F-S]

It has finally happened. My 11x14 has turned into an 8x10....or so it seems. That only took a few years. After working with the 11x14 I now crave a larger negative. The 14x17 would be as large as I would want to go. The 16x20 is a tad large and beefy for what I am looking for. So maybe the 14x17 could do the job. The lens selection that I have would carry over to the 14x17 as well. There would be the need to buy additional holders. A reducing back would still allow me to use 11x14 as I do not want to give that format up. Has anyone else made the jump from 11x14 to 14x17? If so was it worth the jump? As this is a very pricey move opinions are welcome. Horror stories or otherwise. Maybe I should just be happy and stay with the 11x14. It is a great sized negative......but so would a 14x17. :)

-Bruce

I would suggest you stick to 8x10 and enlarge. I think you'll get better results. Just my 2 ç's worth. L

[diversey]

Great! You can make another lens extension :o. Look forward to seeing your 14x17 back.

[QUOTE=Tin Can;1566574]Yes David I will let you know

Spent today trying lenses on the Levy Camera focusing them at 18" and 30 ft, almost max possible in studio, meaning the camera is in the kitchen looking at the living room wall, I can get 35' with more work, about the same as last studio in Chicago, my shed gives me 40' inside, the trailer infinity

Levy has only 35" of bellows, too short for my Petzval Portrait plans, I tried a 18" Top Hat lens extension 7 years ago, now wish I had not given it away to that fellow at our last meet up, way back then...he did want it!

[Vaughn]

Earlier this year I took a Carbon Transfer class with Jim Fitzgearld. He has a 14X17 and I fell in love with the format for many of the reasons you stated. I ordered one from Richard Ritter and hope to have it in the next month or two. Looking forward to getting it and putting it thru the paces.

Yeah, but Jim's a nut...he builds his own cameras out of walnut. Half my size, cameras twice as big. Good eye, great carbon prints. There is a different look between camera negatives and digital negatives, and each has their own influences on one's process and end results. I am pretty happy with up to an 11x14 platinum or carbon print direct from the camera-negative...but 14x17 is sweet on the wall.

[MAubrey]

All this talk is making me want to build an 14x17 back for my 11x14.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yes, I am a nut so thank you!! I've built nine cameras mainly for myself. Of that number four of them have been 14x17"s. One studio camera and three field cameras. My 14x17 camera is 21 pounds and is a joy to use. I sold my 11x14 to a good friend of mine because I felt the same way that Kerik does. 14x17 has more "presence" on the wall. It is much bigger than my 8x10 which is my point and shoot. I'm now using 8x10, 8x20 and 14x17. Those three formats work well for me.

[Tin Can]

14X17 Copy Camera coming up, has only 4" rise and fall, be good for Macro in 2 sizes

Very sturdy box, front and rear focus only with 34" extension now with my DIY 8X10 back

Plans are for a 6" thick back that will use a 14X17 holder that weighs 6.5 lbs, for 40" extension

1st pic is how i use it now as 8X10, I will retain that usability

The front hole is 8x10"

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50298500868_d96ceb56e3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGXWd)8X10 Levy (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGXWd) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50298500453_1f81c64aa0_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGXP4)Inside Levy (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGXP4) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50299335507_16b0c3aa75_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMf3x)14X17 holder and 8X10 back 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMf3x) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50298501138_b42fc22b91_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGY1S)8x10 back and 14X17 holder (https://flic.kr/p/2jCGY1S) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Tin Can]

Doodling on paper

I now think I can make the 14X17 extension back with few saw cuts

Just like the existing 8X10 mod, I will use this (https://www.dickblick.com/items/07045-1620/) to start, then cut a hole, reinforce it like i did the other

It will bolt onto the OE back from the sides, using four 1/4-20 nutserts, resting on OE back bottom shelf

I will use a removable, flip over or swing out GG. TBD

The film holder has no locking ridge, I may use slide locking dowels or ?? to clamp it

Next a wheel borrow type cart, to move it outside

[Scott Davis]

I'm a proud owner of a Canham 14x17. For its size, it's very manageable because it's "light-weight" (a relative term). It's probably also unique in that I personally know everyone who has owned the camera, from the maker onward. When eventually it leaves my hands, that's probably not going to be possible (for the next owner to know everyone in the ownership/manufacture chain). But I really have to make a decision each time I want to use it because using it is not for the faint of heart or wallet. At close to $20/exposure, you'd better be damn sure you want to take the picture to take the picture. And then to make a platinum print from that? That's commitment.