Shipping to countries with known mail fraud - Paypal enabling

[goamules]

I've shipped lenses all over the world: Russia, China, Thailand included among many other countries that have better mail systems.

I'm often asked by a "member" with no posts on this and other forums to sell them an item, which must be shipped to one of the known countries that have dismal success rates at getting the package there. That's two strikes: you are not a contributing member, but just joined to buy things. And you live in a country like Brazil, Outer Mongolia, Nigeria, Tajekistan, etc.

So my answer is usually "sorry", but this week (and 2 weeks ago on the Rangefinder forum) I tried to compromise. The person contacted me with a clear, polite PM, asking if I'd sell it to them, and where the shipping was. Both times I said:

"I feel uncomfortable that the item will arrive in your hands. If you are willing to take the risk, I will ship to you. But I want you to use a payment method other than Paypal. That will have to be a cleared payment, in my bank, before I'll ship."

Both times, they didn't even honor our conversation with a reply. Just...went...silent.

This leads me to believe some people in these countries like avoiding personal risk by only paying with Paypal. They know that if the lens doesn't arrive they can make a quick ping to Paypal, and will get their money refunded with no seller intervention. In effect, they want the seller to take all the risk. They send Paypal out into the ether, and wait. If the lens arrives, they can say they didn't get it. Or that it was damaged (likely in those countries). Either way, it's no fuss - no muss for them, they get the money back.

If I'm not mistaken, Paypal then refunds the money, and stops being involved. They don't ensure the person shipped it BACK. They don't check with the SELLER that HE received it, or that it wasn't damaged coming home. Right? It's a one way guarantee, they won't "unrefund" the money if you don't get it, will they?

One of these was an obvious scam. They guy offered way more than the lens was worth, and agreed to buy it when I was just posting about it. But the others (it happens about 3-4 times a year to me) just never answer to my terms. They only want to use THEIR terms. Paypal's guarantee that uses no real proof. If I'm wrong, someone correct me that Paypal doesn't refund, only Ebay does?

[Old-N-Feeble]

I don't advertise to sell on forums but I do sell on eBay. I have a fairly lengthy list of countries in my "refuse bid" list. I simply won't ship to those places... period... ever. If people in those places really want to buy in the USA there are third party options for that. I don't care if they utilize those third parties because once an item reaches that USA address I'm covered because the buyer can't claim non-delivery and unless that third party is someone in cahoots with the buyer and claims some sort of foul then it's over and done.

If a buyer has enough money to offer far more than what a pricey item is worth... then they can afford to use a third-party shipper/forwarder.

[koh303]

I've shipped lenses all over the world: Russia, China, Thailand included among many other countries that have better mail systems.

I'm often asked by a "member" with no posts on this and other forums to sell them an item, which must be shipped to one of the known countries that have dismal success rates at getting the package there. That's two strikes: you are not a contributing member, but just joined to buy things. And you live in a country like Brazil, Outer Mongolia, Nigeria, Tajekistan, etc.

So my answer is usually "sorry", but this week (and 2 weeks ago on the Rangefinder forum) I tried to compromise. The person contacted me with a clear, polite PM, asking if I'd sell it to them, and where the shipping was. Both times I said:

"I feel uncomfortable that the item will arrive in your hands. If you are willing to take the risk, I will ship to you. But I want you to use a payment method other than Paypal. That will have to be a cleared payment, in my bank, before I'll ship."

Both times, they didn't even honor our conversation with a reply. Just...went...silent.

This leads me to believe some people in these countries like avoiding personal risk by only paying with Paypal. They know that if the lens doesn't arrive they can make a quick ping to Paypal, and will get their money refunded with no seller intervention. In effect, they want the seller to take all the risk. They send Paypal out into the ether, and wait. If the lens arrives, they can say they didn't get it. Or that it was damaged (likely in those countries). Either way, it's no fuss - no muss for them, they get the money back.

If I'm not mistaken, Paypal then refunds the money, and stops being involved. They don't ensure the person shipped it BACK. They don't check with the SELLER that HE received it, or that it wasn't damaged coming home. Right? It's a one way guarantee, they won't "unrefund" the money if you don't get it, will they?

One of these was an obvious scam. They guy offered way more than the lens was worth, and agreed to buy it when I was just posting about it. But the others (it happens about 3-4 times a year to me) just never answer to my terms. They only want to use THEIR terms. Paypal's guarantee that uses no real proof. If I'm wrong, someone correct me that Paypal doesn't refund, only Ebay does?


Reading their rules or posting this where it actually belongs, say an Ebay "community board" thread (or paypal when relevant) is not a bad idea if you want to sell and be aware of the rules. You are mistaken about a great many things about paypal and Ebay.

Use a reliable shipping carrier which requires a signature upon delivery, with full insurance (all courier services do that).
Then if a buyer says they dident get it, you have proof, or your money back.
If they say it was broken, you get your money back
If they claim via paypal, they have to send it back, on their ticket for paypal to honor the claim, andyou still get paid by insurance on the original shipment regardless.

Just as many crooks in the US then in most other places in the world, and you are open to the same risk when selling in the US (or greater risk).

It seems like you are getting hit many times (or at least you write about it often), perhaps the problem is not with your buyers?

[RSalles]

That's a sort of fun reading Brazil mixed with "outer" Mongolia, Tajekistan, and so fort... I don't know how bad the postal services or buyers in those countries are.
But for myself, what I can say is the postal service here is as risky as USPS: that stinky think can happen - add Murphy's Law to the sentence.

Actually I have an account 10 years old at ebay, and nearby the same at PayPal - with 100% feedback at ebay where I count 200 successfully deals. One time I had the intention to buy a lens from a seller in UK but he refused to send to Brazil with the same impression as yours. At later time I came to the point where shipping fees were increasing and hired a forward service in USA which I'm using now. I bought maybe 10 items as cameras and lenses here at the forum, and myself and the seller are happy. And sold a shutter - the only item I have sold here - to a member in CO or NV, don't remember, all went equally well for both. So, in my opinion, it's more important to consider the person and its feedback as a buyer then the country where he lives.

Cheers,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE Feedback: Feedback on forums is one thing but feedback on eBay is quite another. A seller is only allowed to leave positive feedback for buyers... doesn't matter if the seller proves the buyer is a scammer. So a buyer can have 500 feedback but scammed another 500... as long as he isn't proven a scammer he can just keep scamming.

[480sparky]

The scam works because they're in a country that cannot get delivery confirmation in the US. So as soon as you say you shipped the package, PayPal sends you a notice that the buyer never received the package. You can tell PayPal you sent the package an hour ago and they don't care.... you gotta pay the buyer back.

[RSalles]

So, what about selling with a shipping type with "proof of delivery"? Many types of shipment has this option. A buyer can argue what he wants, but against a proof of delivery signed by him is a difficult task. Otherwise, just don't sell. I can imagine how hard can be for a seller to close a deal with 100% of his part well done, and never seeing his money back,

Cheers,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

Renato, proof of delivery isn't available in all countries and restricted signature (signature of specific recipient with photo ID) certainly isn't. I just don't bother shipping to the known 'problem countries'. For one thing, even if I was able to get such delivery services then I'd have to set ALL of my overseas shipping to those preferences which adds much to the shipping cost. This would decrease my overseas sales overall.

[RSalles]

That's a thing to battle with ebay: to ask them to let the seller to set the shipping modality depending of the country. In doubt, Fedex or DHL or other with full POD,
(actually, it's a common thing to find in the product description some restrictions to where and how the item have to be shipped, even if in the "check out" section the buyer can choose another one bypassing the seller shipping policies, from Japan for instance it's a very used restriction they apply to,

Best,

Renato

[Old-N-Feeble]

Renato, it would be far too much trouble to set one's shipping preferences for each country especially since things can change on a per-item basis. This is true for at least for 99 percent of all sellers on eBay. Listing restrictions in the item description does nothing if the seller doesn't set those same restrictions in his/her seller settings. Regarding using a third-party checkout... same issues as above... it's just not worth all the extra time and trouble.

[480sparky]

When on ebay, it's simple. Opt out of the international shipping option, and post on your listings where you WILL ship to.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I ship worldwide but I have many countries that I block bids from. I set it once and never mess with it. If I list an item that wouldn't be worth shipping overseas then that listing won't offer international shipping. Easy easy...

Simply stating which countries one will ship to would add much unnecessary text to the description. It's far better to keep things simple, especially since overseas buyers may not read English. Also, overseas buyers' searches may not show sellers' listings who don't have their settings for international delivery.

If a seller wants to sell to overseas buyers, a blocked countries list is the best option to minimize problems. There are also some other settings I used to help block scammers but I can't remember what they are now... I'd have to research it again.

I never have any scammers bother me. Not through eBay.

[koh303]

Ebay (and paypal) do not consider delivery confirmation by USPS a valid form of proof of delivery. The only thing they do, is a signature confirmation, which something USPS does not really offer to any country as far as i know, though in some cases they do scan in the actual signature, there is no way to guarantee that, no matter where you ship to.

When you use a courier service, like i mentioned at the top, and that renato repeated, that problem is not a problem. Add insurance, and there are no problems at all.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Ebay (and paypal) do not consider delivery confirmation by USPS a valid form of proof of delivery. The only thing they do, is a signature confirmation, which something USPS does not really offer to any country as far as i know, though in some cases they do scan in the actual signature, there is no way to guarantee that, no matter where you ship to.

When you use a courier service, like i mentioned at the top, and that renato repeated, that problem is not a problem. Add insurance, and there are no problems at all.

Last I checked, those courier services are prohibitively expensive.

[koh303]

Last I checked, those courier services are prohibitively expensive.

Well, that expense offers you various benefits, like:
Actual delivery confirmation
Real insurance that pays up when items are damaged in transit (along side an on time and not damage delivery rate of 97% or higher so in most cases)

If you do enough international shipping, you get a discount. If you dont, there are MANY third party resellers for courier services which offer a considerable discount )60-80% off retail). It will never be the same price as the postal service, but in many cases its not much more, and for the added benefits, you can charge your buyers the difference.

As simple as that expensive things cost more.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yes, I know. But if one wants to limit overseas buyers to those expensive options then ALL of his overseas buyers are limited to those expensive options. Overseas buyers, in countries with more trustworthy postal delivery and fewer scammers. will either bid much lower or not at all. I'll stick with my methods because I really need the money to stay afloat. I've never seen a courier service that could compete with overseas postal delivery fees, not even close. Also, how many of us ship enough overseas to receive a steep discount from those couriers? I'm sure I don't.

[koh303]

There are various courier services that compete with or even beat the price of postal service.
You do not need to ship alot to benefit from the discount third party resellers offer (almost as high a discount as possible with a commercial account).
Raising the cost of shipping to prevent potential loss at the expense of loosing some of the potential earnings is an equation only you can balance, in both cases, its the cost of doing business.

You can always add a text portion with the countries you are willing to ship postal to (not sure why you would do that with high ticket items anyways to anywhere for the aforementioned reasons), and that buyers can ask for an exact shipping quote for their respective country. If you do not do that much sales, that should not be a problem.

Lastly, this topic is best served if asked on an Ebay community discussion board in the selling section. There are people there who know every little letter of the fine print who can guide you if you still have not read them yourself.

[Old-N-Feeble]

You may have taught me something new, koh303. Is there a link to a list and descriptions of the type of couriers you describe? It would be great if there were user ratings too.:)

[B.S.Kumar]

There are various courier services that compete with or even beat the price of postal service.
You do not need to ship alot to benefit from the discount third party resellers offer (almost as high a discount as possible with a commercial account).

I too would appreciate if you can post a link to such couriers.

Thanks,
Kumar

[koh303]

http://www.shipuea.com/
This is one i use often. They offer DHL service.
I think there is an issue with their current website where you cannot order a pickup on the site, but have to call it in to ask for one, or email the helpdesk to schedule it. Its a free pickup BTW.

The only downside of using a courier is that the customer will almost always get hit with some brokerage fee. It might be minimal in some cases or non at all in some countries (Australia, NZ and others).

[Craig Roberts]

I recently shipped a camera overseas.
I got an estimate of shipping cost from the USPS website at $ 130.00. I decided to make it easier for me and stopped at the UPS pack and ship to let them do all the work. The estimate for the same shipping was $ 835.00. Guess which service I used.

[koh303]

I recently shipped a camera overseas.
I got an estimate of shipping cost from the USPS website at $ 130.00. I decided to make it easier for me and stopped at the UPS pack and ship to let them do all the work. The estimate for the same shipping was $ 835.00. Guess which service I used.

going to stores or actual post office is the most expensive thing you can do, and is your first mistake, and that does not even take into account the cost of your time for standing in line or talking to some nitwit. The interweb has all the information one needs to estimate a shipping cost.

[Craig Roberts]

I started with the web, the online cost of UPS was $ 535, which I couldn't believe..
The USPS cost was as noted on the web; the post office was on my way home and took 15 minutes. Easy.

Note that I do not do much international shipping at all.

[Old-N-Feeble]

http://www.shipuea.com/
This is one i use often. They offer DHL service.
I think there is an issue with their current website where you cannot order a pickup on the site, but have to call it in to ask for one, or email the helpdesk to schedule it. Its a free pickup BTW.

The only downside of using a courier is that the customer will almost always get hit with some brokerage fee. It might be minimal in some cases or non at all in some countries (Australia, NZ and others).

Ah... there's the rub. The customer is hit with a brokerage fee and it might be substantial. Does this fee show when a buyer views the listing? Even if it doesn't shouldn't we sellers warn them of that probability? No one likes painful surprises. Also, I live in a rural area outside of a small town so their driver will have to take a long side trip to pick up here. The only delivery vehicles I've seen here in the last four years are UPS, FedEx and USPS. So my guess is a pickup fee will be imposed and it probably won't be cheap.

[redshift]

I sold a Sinar 8x10 to a buyer on ebay with a Delaware shipping address. The buyers name appeared to be "Asian" but I was comfortable with the Delaware address. I shipped via USPS and verified delivery. A few weeks later I received a complaint on ebay from the buyer and immediately a deduction from my account on paypal. The buyer provided pictures of the camera with several broken and bent components. The buyer was clearly reporting from China. I didn't ship to China. The package was crushed in trans-shipment to China. Eventually Paypal decided in my favor and returned my money. The negative feedback from the buyer still remains on my ebay account.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Redshift, I would try again with eBay to have that negative feedback removed. If PayPal found in your favor then eBay should too. I'm a bit surprised your misfortune occurred several weeks after the item arrived to the USA address because eBay has a 30 day limit for a buyer to complain after the item arrives at their registered eBay address. I know this because I had a similar situation... shipped a large camera to a USA address then six weeks later received an eBay message from the buyer... something broken in shipment... to China. I called eBay and they told me not to worry about it because I did nothing wrong and any bad back feedback would be removed.

[HMG]

Also note that those expensive shipping services will cost the seller 15% in eBay and PayPal fees. You can add handling charge to compensate but adds even more cost to buyer.

[koh303]

Also note that those expensive shipping services will cost the seller 15% in eBay and PayPal fees. You can add handling charge to compensate but adds even more cost to buyer.

We must be using a different ebay.

[koh303]

Ah... there's the rub. The customer is hit with a brokerage fee and it might be substantial. Does this fee show when a buyer views the listing? Even if it doesn't shouldn't we sellers warn them of that probability? No one likes painful surprises. Also, I live in a rural area outside of a small town so their driver will have to take a long side trip to pick up here. The only delivery vehicles I've seen here in the last four years are UPS, FedEx and USPS. So my guess is a pickup fee will be imposed and it probably won't be cheap.

In most countries where duties are imposed (almost all except the US, Australia and NZ and handful of others around the world) ALL incoming shipments are dutiable. In the case of courier shipments, you can actually calculate and know in advance (and inform the buyer) of the estimated cost of import before the shipment, something you cannot do with USPS. In most cases (except very small or low value items) the cost is the same (with exception of canada).

[HMG]

We must be using a different ebay.

Must be. The one I use bases final value fees on total, including shipping: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html#how

[koh303]

Must be. The one I use bases final value fees on total, including shipping: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html#how

http://www.fees.ebay.com/feeweb/feecalculator
Indeed, and nowhere do they charge an additional 15%. The fee on shipping is based on the cost of domestic shipping. IE - if you offer free shipping in the US and sell internationally you are charged 0% on international shipping cost paid by the buyer.
Paypal charges you to get money, including shipping, no matter how much the total is. 3.9% is always 3.9%.

[HMG]

The 15% was based in 10% eBay and 4% PayPal. Rounded for simplicity.

But your right about fees on int'l shipping:
However, when you offer an international or one-day shipping service and it's selected by your buyer, your final value fee for shipping is calculated using whichever service is less expensive, either:
The first domestic service in your listing that isn't one-day, or
Your international or one-day shipping service

So its only the PayPal fee you're hit with.

[Drew Bedo]

I only sell a few things a year, usually on this forum. I always take the risk of asking for a check. and send out the item via USPS of UPS. I have never sold anything worth more than say $300, mostly much less. From what I have read here and on other threads, I will avoid using PayPal to sell items, and avoid selling outside the USA.

[maciekz]

In most countries where duties are imposed (almost all except the US, Australia and NZ and handful of others around the world) ALL incoming shipments are dutiable. In the case of courier shipments, you can actually calculate and know in advance (and inform the buyer) of the estimated cost of import before the shipment, something you cannot do with USPS. In most cases (except very small or low value items) the cost is the same (with exception of canada).
The cost most certainly is not the same. For example, if you ship to Poland with USPS, the brokerage fee is approx. 4$, but with courier it wold be 25$.

[koh303]

The cost most certainly is not the same. For example, if you ship to Poland with USPS, the brokerage fee is approx. 4$, but with courier it wold be 25$.

i was talking about courier shipments, not USPS.