Darkroom printing for other photographers

[Ilford4ever]

I am printing in the darkroom for about 5 years now and my skills are better and better every day. I learned to print even from digital files on gelatin silver with outstanding results. I use variety of papers and mix my own formulas and employ archival process. I was wondering if there is any interest out there for traditional gelatin silver darkroom black and white printing? Would people hire a printer and what would one be willing to pay for a great darkroom print? Thanks for responses!

[mdarnton]

I wrote a long post based on my experience working in a couple of similar places before digital and watching one die near my house after digital, but I'm just going to summarize: no. Not a chance.

[koraks]

there is any interest out there for traditional gelatin silver darkroom black and white printing?
Absolutely; many enjoy this hobby even today! And there are even a few professional printers left. Don't expect much growth in that professional sector though.


Would people hire a printer
I think mdarnton's response is very accurate. You could try to organize workshops to get some money out off other amateurs' pockets, but I imagine you'd run a very real risk of having to live in a cardboard box most of the time.


what would one be willing to pay for a great darkroom print?
Anything between the cost of the paper and many thousands of dollars. Most of us are forever stuck at the low end of that range though.

[LabRat]

Sadly, the masses today do not have the foresight to realize that what they are saving on their harddrive may not last for generations, where the prints in their family album may be 100+ years old and still there, so the archival market is a hard sell... (I know of someone who has trashed their family archives after scanning simply because "It took up too much room" Sigh...)

Maybe if you can tap into the Lomo crowd, but today with all the free pictures on the web, photography is often being thought of as a "free" and "giveaway" thing, so it will be hard to get paid for something that is "free" (to many people)...

Pros are sometimes jerks, and don't want to pay the minimum and want the max...

A lot of flakes around who get strange when it's payment time... (Even if they are happy with the work)

Artists are often VERY picky, and want to change this or that on the print for no reason, except they think they have unlimited choices...

Too many people are a "Super Genius" these days, know-it-all, and expect you to read their minds and match the print in their head...

And any bad photographer blames the prints (and the printer)...

But there are good people about who will pay for services, and be grateful, but hard as a full time thing...

Find your wings, and fly on your own!!!!!

Steve K

[ic-racer]

I know it has been done in the past by others, but without actually being there or having a very close working relationship, how would the printer know how to make the print? Unless it is your own print and I'm commissioning your interpretation of my negative. Like ' I had Sid Kaplan print my negative.'

[Liquid Artist]

My own belief is if I want or need something printed quickly and don't have the time. There are 1 or 2 people I don't mind hiring (and do occasionally) knowing that their vision is similar to mine.
At that time I pay what I can afford. Sometimes it's not much more than the materials, other times the printers make out quite nicely.

However that only happens once or twice a year. I still prefer doing my own work, and may have the time I need to do it soon.

For me having a good reliable framer is more important.

[Drew Wiley]

Depends where you live. In a major metro area like NYC or here in the Bay Area it would be certainly feasible if you are good enough in both technique and marketing; but you'd be competing with the remaining full-service pro labs, who still do this kind of thing on both a volume and custom basis. I would guess that the most likely potential clients are those who want to shoot real film and have classic paper prints, but don't have their own darkroom space. I really don't think
there would be that many in Arizona (don't know exactly where you live), and casting a wider net (advertising on the net) would require an established reputation
as a printer. But making a bit of side money with it certainly might be feasible.

[Drew Wiley]

I should have added that at certain points in time I have made a solid side buck or two doing specialized printing, both color and b&w, for others. Basically, I hate
printing other people's negatives. But if they were willing to fork out the dough for special treatment that the commercial labs couldn't handle, it could be hard to resist. But now that so many advanced corrections can be routinely done via PS, that kind of game is far more limited.

[Tin Can]

I wrote a long post based on my experience working in a couple of similar places before digital and watching one die near my house after digital, but I'm just going to summarize: no. Not a chance.

Agreed.

Maybe in 2 generations and by then all chems will be banned with no water for washing.

These are the good old days. :)

[bob carnie]

My sole income since 1978 has been printing for others.

I am still doing this and will be doing it for as long as I can keep out of the Man diapers.

Its a great occupation, if you go commercial you can make a lot of money, if you stay archival and work with good materials you can have a good life.

With the internet , it would be easier today for a talented young worker to set up and be basically anywhere. Trying to keep it going in a big city is
difficult and each month the wheel keeps moving...

If you are not like a chamelion, you have no chance to have success. Also you need a very tough skin to survive.

[brucetaylor]

I think Bob sums it up. You also have not said whether you want to do this full or part time. If this is a part time gig, why not give it a try and see where it leads? See if you like it. Do your research, find out where people that would use your service hang out (on the internet, and perhaps locally) and advertise there.

[bob carnie]

Some people are better at making images and others better at printing them, I know excellent photographers who have tried to print their own work and it sucks.
As well excellent darkroom printers who's images suck .


The printers role IMO is to figure out the style a photographer wants and then communicate that style with his or her printing skills. Over the years I have learned many styles
and at some point the printer and photographer are on the same page.




I know it has been done in the past by others, but without actually being there or having a very close working relationship, how would the printer know how to make the print? Unless it is your own print and I'm commissioning your interpretation of my negative. Like ' I had Sid Kaplan print my negative.'

[Drew Wiley]

The distinct edge I can see is the ability to do specialized toning, very specific advanced skills if needed, etc, experience with lots of papers and developers. Toning is where digital repro looks hokey at. They are a few skilled LF film portrait photographers around here still doing relatively well, but needing an extra tweak with
respect to image making and presentation. Otherwise, there are several excellent dual-service labs in the immediate vicinity (both digital and darkroom printing
services). I have zero interest unless I can fetch ten times the price as a commercial lab per print. But I'd rather shoot the thing too. I can certainly admire anyone who can turn other peoples negs into compelling prints, but know from experience (including a lot of antique negs) that it takes more patience than I have to do it as a career. The only thing worse is trying to print other people's poorly exposed chrome film, esp Velveeta!

[Mark Sampson]

I made my living as a b/w printer in a custom lab... from 1981 to 1984. Didn't make much money then; can't imagine making any now, unless like Mr. Carnie you're working at the very highest level. The two challenges upon starating out would seem to be 1) finding people willing to pay the (necessarily) high prices and 2) then being able to satisfy those very picky customers.
But if you have a well-set-up darkroom capable of handling some volume, and you know some photographers, give it a try; you'll find out soon enough if it will work.

[Liquid Artist]

The printers role IMO is to figure out the style a photographer wants and then communicate that style with his or her printing skills.

This is how I feel, and also why I only allow 1 or 2 people to touch my work.
It's actually 1 person with a traditional darkroom, and 1 person with a digital darkroom including drum scanners.

Another point it I would trust and allow just about any member here to spend a few days with my negatives if they had a reason.
However I don't trust any mailman or courier to deliver them safely.

[fishbulb]

To successfully work as a darkroom printer, you'll need to be in an area where you've got (A) lots of film photographers who (B) don't want to print their own work and (C) there aren't any existing competitors.

Sure you can move to Portland or Brooklyn or Austin TX or San Francisco or wherever you are seeing the Film Renaissance. But those markets are competitive, with existing businesses serving the needs. So even if you can find (A), (C) is a problem for you. There are plenty of excellent, experienced printers in any area where there are a lot of film users.

And (B) limits the size of the market, and the growth, since film photography is primarily artists and hobbyists these days - commercial film use has all but disappeared, so the need/desire for new third-party printers is pretty low, even if film use in an area is relatively high.

[bob carnie]

In Toronto I was told not to start printing for others when I started my own shop, specifically BW as there were already 5 others..too much competition they say.

My response to that is , they will need to be better and harder working than me, today all 5 are out of the game...

Competition is good, if I was to start over I would not hesitate to go to a market saturated with printers... Cream always rises to the top.




To successfully work as a darkroom printer, you'll need to be in an area where you've got (A) lots of film photographers who (B) don't want to print their own work and (C) there aren't any existing competitors.

Sure you can move to Portland or Brooklyn or Austin TX or San Francisco or wherever you are seeing the Film Renaissance. But those markets are competitive, with existing businesses serving the needs. So even if you can find (A), (C) is a problem for you. There are plenty of excellent, experienced printers in any area where there are a lot of film users.

And (B) limits the size of the market, and the growth, since film photography is primarily artists and hobbyists these days - commercial film use has all but disappeared, so the need/desire for new third-party printers is pretty low, even if film use in an area is relatively high.

[RSalles]

Bob,

I want to agree with you about your printing skills - which I know nothing BTW - but I can recognise immediately your self-promotion capabilities.
Maybe this arsenal is part of the "chameleon" and "tough skin" you had mentioned about before. That's a kind of personality steroids that I have the impression that I'll never acquire.

Now let me add to the the thread some points about wet printing that I find to be as important as a correct business approach:
- Chemicals and paper - always fresh, from a trusted source, avoid making large stocks because market is unstable sometimes and collaborate to deteriorate your stock age.
- Repeatability - temperature control, enlarger steadiness, enlargement notes, and so fort.
- Respect for the environment
- Lens quality, including correct ratio.
- Safety and comfort at the lab - correct safety filtering and lightning for the lab dimension, establishing a comfortable working routine.
If one have available area for mounting the images, good, I always hired someone to make this part as it requires an amount of available space and material that I've never been able to balance with the low production I make, to justify it.

Cheers,

Renato

[brucetaylor]

In Toronto I was told not to start printing for others when I started my own shop, specifically BW as there were already 5 others..too much competition they say.

My response to that is , they will need to be better and harder working than me, today all 5 are out of the game...

Competition is good, if I was to start over I would not hesitate to go to a market saturated with printers... Cream always rises to the top.

There you have it. There are many naysayers on this thread, and a few positives. Bob knows what he's talking about, obviously. He clearly has the passion, skill and fortitude required to be successful in his field. The only way to find out if you have what it takes is to try it out.

Years ago I gave professional photography a try. I love photography, I did not like trying to make a living at it. I have been a happy amateur since then.

[IanG]

Adding to what Bob Carnie's written, when printing for someone else you have to work with them to achieve the results they want from their negatives, that might be quite different to how you'd print if it was one of your own shots. I processed and printed for one photographer for over 30 years from my early 20's, I'd worked for his brother on 2 books before that, and it made printing for them easier.

If you're printing for a number of other people at anything more than an amateur level you need a very broad and varied repertoire, experience of techniques like flashing, two bath development, quite aggressive dodging and burning if printing at higher contrasts. lith printing, toning, archival work flow. print matting/mounting ets.

Ian

[Liquid Artist]

Ilford4ever,

If you already own most of the equipment to get started I think you should just get some fresh supplies of paper and chemistry along with a reliable source for more just in case business explodes. Then go for it.
The absolutely worst that will happen is you will have a lifetime supply of materials.

[Michael Wesik]

I am printing in the darkroom for about 5 years now and my skills are better and better every day. I learned to print even from digital files on gelatin silver with outstanding results. I use variety of papers and mix my own formulas and employ archival process. I was wondering if there is any interest out there for traditional gelatin silver darkroom black and white printing? Would people hire a printer and what would one be willing to pay for a great darkroom print? Thanks for responses!

The viability of being a printer really depends on market demand, which may be difficult to determine off the hop. As some people have alluded, you might have to do some leg work and put yourself out there to see what the demand is, otherwise it might be difficult to determine. You probably won't find this sort of information/feedback on sites like these where the focus is on people making their own stuff. They probably wouldn't be in your target market anyways.

As far as pricing goes, I've known professional printers who charge up to 125$/hr or quote based on a given project. The easiest thing to do would be to source out current professional printing operations and have them quote you for a variety of projects. You might be able to drum up some insight into pricing and such.

Best of luck!

[Drew Wiley]

I dunno about stocking up a lot of supplies based on a venture. If you're gonna succeed as a "custom" printer you need to be flexible in terms of desired look,
including suitable paper and developer choices. Simply going around advertising, "I print on this or that exclusively" isn't going to differentiate you from the volume labs. You can make a point of stating you specialized in true darkroom silver prints (versus digital, which many people do themselves now); but I think you'd have a big advantage if you were familiar with a variety of silver paper, developers, and toning techniques. Otherwise, you can't command a realistic enough price to cover your overhead. Then you probably have to offer a drymounting mounting service too. After that, they could go to a custom framer. But if you have to sub the mounting itself to a frame shop, it will eat up a lot of profit. Just suggesting. I've done this kind of thing, including full deluxe framing service, so know that one has to establish a niche.

[Liquid Artist]

Drew, although your right I just ordered some Ilford 20 x 24 FB paper a week ago. Nothing special, but I am in Canada.
If I'm lucky it will arrive in 1 more week. If I had a big order I would be up the creek. As it is I'll be pushing the time limit for an art show I've been accepted into.
Oh, I ordered it from one of the best camera stores in Canada.

I would just hate to see anyone else have an issue messing an order up if there's a way to avoid it.

Which is also why I mentioned a reliable supplier, which is the best route.

[Drew Wiley]

The availability of specific papers changes from time to time, just like film. One needs to be flexible. I personally half quite a range of both color and black and white papers on hand in my own lab, some of it frozen, with about 60% of those specific items now out of production. One loses favorite films and papers, then
discovers new favorites.

[tgtaylor]

My sole income since 1978 has been printing for others.

I am still doing this and will be doing it for as long as I can keep out of the Man diapers.

Its a great occupation, if you go commercial you can make a lot of money, if you stay archival and work with good materials you can have a good life.

With the internet , it would be easier today for a talented young worker to set up and be basically anywhere. Trying to keep it going in a big city is
difficult and each month the wheel keeps moving...

If you are not like a chamelion, you have no chance to have success. Also you need a very tough skin to survive.

It's a loooong way to the top..
if you want to rock-n-roll.

Thomas